Recovering Service Needed

[hisoos]

Although the plane is hangared, there is no door, and my tailfeathers got damaged in a hail storm some years ago.

Every time I would gather some money to get it airworthy again, something would always come up which would rob the bank.

Well I have some money set aside again, and really want to get back in the air.

The rudder, elevator, and horizontal stabs need recovered. I considered doing it myself, and will if I have to. I just don't have the time and would rather leave it to experienced hands.

I was pointed to a local FBO that said they could perform this work, but they wanted $5,000 to do so. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that number considering it is probably conservatively 1/3 a value of the bird. And know that the materials cost is around $1K that is $4K in labor.

Is this realistic?

Anyone know where I could get this work completed more reasonably with all appropriate log book entries?

The bird is located in central Ohio, but I have already removed everything but the stabs. I am willing to ship the parts whereever I find the right deal.

Thanks for any input.

[crispy critter]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

I just sent you a private message. Call me, I'm not too far away and might able to help.

[Joe cooper]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

I just sent you a private message. Call me, I'm not too far away and might able to help.

Did the guy who quoted this absurd amount wear a mask and say " stand and deliver!?"

[hisoos]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

Did the guy who quoted this absurd amount wear a mask and say " stand and deliver!?"

Thanks, I thought that quote was absurd as well.

[M Towsley]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

I might be missing something, but I wonder why all these quotes are used all the time. It just muddles up the discussion, unless needed. This is a singular conversation about covering, no quotes really needed.

From what I am looking at above, Joe is accusing Kevin of attempting to rob hisoos, or whatever his name is. I know Kevin well enough to know he is a decent guy and always trying to help. Perhaps this was 'misquoted'?

Some of these quotes, not this page but others, are so lengthy we now have three pages for a simple conversation.

Sorry for the rant but some of these are just not needed and infer that someone from this forum is trying to take advantage of another member.

[crispy critter]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

The problem is that a lot of maintanace shops these days don't do a lot of fabric work and the few that do know this, and charge by the hour because they can! With labor rates in most metro areas hitting $75-$100 per hour it only take 20-25 hours to hit the $2000 mark on labor alone. Any of us who do a lot of tube and fabric work know there's 20-40 hours easy in covering a complete set of tail surfaces, I some cases longer then that.

$5000 is outrageous for covering a set of tail surfaces no matter who does it. I cant see charging anyone by the hour for doing fabric work simply because of the amount labor involved, it doesn't take anytime at all to overtake the value of the airplane.

The last airpane i competely restored for someone else was a taylorcraft. It came to me as a basket case in boxes and I charged him $12,500 for the labor alone. To most folks that sound like a lot but when it was all said and done I had right at 1000 hours worth of labor involved. All new spars, new stringers, completely stripped everything to bare metal, etching, alodining, epoxing priming everything. Made new wing and gear fairings, new interior, new panel, new plumbing for everything, new fuel lines, new glass, new fabric,dope, paint, etc.

I did not overhaul the engine because it was very low time since overhaul but we did pull all four cylinder for inspection and done a top while it was apart, then cleaned or made new baffles, new baffle seals, new exhaust, new brakes, new tires, new everything. The airplane was and still is a beauty and they owner was very happy with the finished product and the price.... Keep in mind that price was labor only and did not include parts, fabric, dope, paint, primer, sand paper, hardware, cleaner, soda blasters fee, etc,etc. At that time he had just over $21,000 in the restoration cost. That was back around 2007
I have recovered a couple airplanes since then but for myself and not for hire. I have done a lot of patch work and helped a few friends recover their birds but no one now days wants to pay to have one completely recovered since the economy tanked. It's a very large untaking that fewer and fewer people are interested in taking on or paying to have done.

Tube and fabric work is rapidly becoming a lost art in today's world of carbon fiber and other composites. Its messy, stinky, expensive, tedious, time consuming, and I'll be surprised if anyone still knows how to do it another 50 years or so. Its not hard to do but it is something that you just have to do over and over to get really good at it. It's an art that you just have to love to enjoy doing it and really appreciate the rewards when completed.

My girls love old airplanes, they love flying the cub, taylorcraft, 170, and Starduster. They are not too interested in many things with a nose wheel. They even enjoyed swapping the engine out on the cub last summer when I told them they had to do it if they wanted to fly it because I didn't have time(I was however supervising from afar and my dad sat along side advising them on what to do next the whole time,lol). But I cant even get them near fabric work, they simply have no desire to learn it at all. They won't come near the hanger if I'm spraying dope. Maybe the new grandson will take an interest.

[crispy critter]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

Marty,
I think joe was just talking about the quote from the first post by hisoos(maybe just hit the quote button from my reply rather then the original). I didn't give hisoos that quote and I agree with joe, $5000 is nuts to recover a set of tail feathers,lol(see my previous post to this thread)....but I do thank you my friend for taking up for me, we need to meet somewhere in the middle for lunch sometime.

[M Towsley]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

I hope so, Kevin. Apparently proof-reading is a lost art.

Yes, would like to get together. Looking at so much snow on the ground and 25 below wind chills tonight I think we will have to wait a little while!

[crispy critter]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

Yes, have to wait until the spring thaw.....never thought I could use that phrase and mean it in east Kentucky.

[hisoos]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

Yes Kevin's quote seemed very reasonable. I think it was just a misquote by Joe, but I knew what he meant.

Thanks everyone. Now I just need to get those stabs off. Gonna be fun.

[Joe cooper]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

Yes Kevin's quote seemed very reasonable. I think it was just a misquote by Joe, but I knew what he meant.

Thanks everyone. Now I just need to get those stabs off. Gonna be fun.

I read 5000 dollars for doing this work which is a real rip off. This is what I responded to. What ever the proof reading comment applys to is a mystery. Having done some fabric work and watched a few others much better and faster I am sure of what I said.

[crispy critter]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

Lol, joe. Hisoos was posting the $5000 quote he got locally from someone else in his first post. When he posted about my quote being more reasonable was a quote that I gave him on the phone. I can see now where the confusion came in, but just to clarify, I "did not" give hisoos a $5000 quote! Its all good my friendns.

[3Dreaming]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

I read 5000 dollars for doing this work which is a real rip off. This is what I responded to. What ever the proof reading comment applys to is a mystery. Having done some fabric work and watched a few others much better and faster I am sure of what I said.

The problem was not that you didn't know what you meant, but the fact that you made the comment by quoting Kevin's offer to help. Your statement along with Kevin's post made it look like you thought Kevin was trying to rip him off.

[Joe cooper]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

I certainly would not have implied that kevin did anything wrong. I didn't even realize he had made a quote! I did hit the wrong button and I'm glad kevin and some others immed. Picked this up and understood. I'm always interested in crispys and Cayvons posts as they are educational and interesting!

[Acroeric]

Re: Recovering Service Needed

Very true that $5000 to recover 2 elevators. 2 horizontal stabs, and a rudder seems high. Let me share a different side of the story with you. I own a shop at a local airport. We do fabric work almost every day and I feel that we do a pretty good job. We have worked very hard to establish a solid reputation.This is the cost breakout of what we think is too high. . . . . . .
Materials- $1500
Labor Hours in covering/surface prep/ epoxy priming/ ready for spray coats - 60 hours (5 control surfaces)
Labor hours in Paint booth - 24 hours (all spray coats, sanding, masking, and color scheme layout)
Equals an Hourly rate of - $41.67

Not sure about you guys but this starts to look a lot less over the top when you break it out like this. In my shop we have a bill rate of about 2 to 1 meaning we bill about 1 hour for every 2 worked. My insurance is over $10k per year, technical data, taxes, airport lease, equipment costs, tooling, EPA compliant spray booth, utilities, hangar payments, etc. That $40/ hour gets consumed really quickly.

Kevin should charge more- I have seen his work. This is an art and we have invested much in our craft. The percentage of what work costs compared to aircraft value is something that we always keep in mind but at the end of the day- we do not adjust because of that. We focus on doing the absolute best restorations that we can do. We strive for art. We want our work to look far better than anything done by Aviat, American Champion, WACO etc.

My shop would not be far from the $5000 quote for 5 tail surfaces and I am not embarrassed by that at all. The truth is- the $5000 quote was not robbery at all if done to very high standards. True, you can do it yourself for much less. The majority of times that happens it is very apparent by the workmanship. My first couple times covering were far from perfect. I guess it just all depends on what you have. Money or time. You almost never have both.