Opinions needed

[M Towsley]

Re: Opinions needed

Terry, you probably lost it in the description but he described it as having new struts. I also worry the guy is selling the plane but he doesn't know when the overhaul was done? Lots of red flags.

I am no expert, but I would run the other way and find something else. Even though our aircraft are starting to creep up in value, his over-evaluation of his means he really may not know what he is doing, (either in the 're-do' or the attempt at selling it).

[N96337]

Re: Opinions needed

The top coat would depend on what it was painted with in 1989 wouldnt it. The regs were a little different then. I might be correct in saying this but in 89 I believe you could use almost any top coat you wanted. If it was repainted under that rule or was the same as the original top coat wouldn't that still be legal, or at least a grey area?

Kevin, that's what I'd always thought...but have heard much different. Our FISDO was asked this basic question at an IA seminar and told us that if it's a minor repair, you can continue to repair it with the same thing, as long as you can still get the exact same coating that was applied originally. However, if it's a major repair (which a complete paint job most certainly is...) the current regs apply, and anything after 2001 shall be painted with an approved topcoat. I'd want it in writing from my local FISDO before I'd be putting my IA on the line, signing off a paint job.
Richard, no matter HOW much flex additive you install in the automotive paint, it goes away. Flex additive is designed to flex a very finite number of times (it was primarily designed for the flexible bumpers on cars when they came out), and it leaves the topcoat over time. One of the major differences of the automotive paint versus aircraft paint is the amount of solids. High solids make it easier to apply, but as the paint cures, they promote cracking. It's not "if", it's "when". Bottom line is that the aircraft is not legal by the 2011 addition of a layer of non-approved topcoat. If you bought this plane and took it to your IA, he/she could easily lose their authority and license by signing off an annual inspection...also it could negate ALL your insurance (aircraft as well as life or any other) by you flying an unairworthy aircraft if there ever was a problem..... Is it worth that?

[barnstmr]

Re: Opinions needed

This discussion brings up thoughts floating around in my mind about the VALUE of our Taylorcrafts. To me it seems the asking price for the average Taylorcraft is around 20K + or - 2K or 3K. Then it seems there are a few on the basket case / no engine end of the scale that are priced anywhere from say 3K to 10K depending on condition and completeness of the basket. Perhaps there are some priced in the 10K to 15K if they are flyable and in annual, but high time engine or needing work such as fabric. Somewhere there is an upper end of the scale but it seems less tangible. I have known of seemingly perfect Taylorcrafts with C85s and tricked out in other ways selling in the mid 30Ks. Does this seem accurate?

Then I look at my own airplane and so far, I have invested in the "average" range. The A65 is mid time. Sweet McCauley prop. Fabric is good but cosmetically, quite mediocre to poor - could be much better. It is very close to original as a BC12D with a squeeky clean paperwork trail. Maintained in good mechanical condition. New seat sling, new struts, other new items here and there. If I had to sell, I would expect to get maybe on the low end of the average going price. Probably not a break-even deal considering all I have invested so far. I am guessing this is like a lot of Taylorcrafts out there.

But now here comes a totally new set of circumstances for my plane. I am about to do a modification that to me will greatly improve the airplane. I will be adding a very low time SMOH C90-12F, Luscombe Exhaust, Starter, Odyssey Battery. I plan to end up with clean paperwork for all of this. Now... does this throw the VALUE of the plane toward the upper end of the Value scale?.... how far? What does that scale look like? I envision it like a bell curve... with the average plane being maybe like mine is now (before the mods). The lower end being ones in need of restoration... and the higher end being ones that are exceptionally perfect recent restorations or perhaps with mods that greatly improve the performance or utility of the airplane. For me, I am pretty sure that the cost for all these performance upgrades will never be re-gained. But if I ever decided to sell, maybe the only way to get a premium price would be to refurbish the fabric, sheet metal, windshield, tires.... But then there's mucho more $$$ invested.

I have concluded that anyone looking at ownership of a Taylorcraft as a profitable investment is fooling themselves. It seems the best way to look at ownership is to decide the features and performance you want and strive for it. The real VALUE is in the experience of this as a hobby. For many like me, improving the plane has to be a process because plunking down a big wad at any given time to have exactly what I want is not feasible. So, over time the cost adds up. You needn't worry as long as you are enjoying the experience and always getting the plane closer to the configuration you want. So the cost of ownership is absorbed in the hobby and the experiences of it all.

I think we all have to come to terms with this before we go into owning an airplane.

So... now back to Chris's dilemma. The real question is..

How does one differentiate the cosmetically clean airplane in average to poor mechanical condition vs. a cosmetically clean or mediocre airplane in excellent mechanical condition?

My thoughts are that the ONLY way is for buyers to press owners to allow a thorough pre-buy inspection (including a paperwork evaluation) with their own mechanic, preferably someone familiar with Taylorcrafts. Owners should accommodate this. Frankly, I would not buy an airplane without at least such a deal. Up front. As for the cosmetic issue, as long as you have a good basic airplane mechanically, the cosmetics are really left to preference. There is a cost to pay for cosmetics, but you're not likely to ever get that back.

[Guest]

Re: Opinions needed

Hi all,

I see in a few posts that "regs" are referred to that specify a top coat.

I am not sure that I am following. What "regs" are being talked about?

I also saw references to years like '89, '01. Are you referencing a change to some part of the FARs?

My familiarity with this kind of discussion is limited to what process & materials are called out by an STC for example. (Or a standard doping process)

Is that what you guys are talking about? If so what does that have to due with some specific year? I would think that the specific STC is all that prevails.

Dave

[Guest]

Re: Opinions needed

This discussion brings up thoughts floating around in my mind about the VALUE of our Taylorcrafts. To me it seems the asking price for the average Taylorcraft is around 20K + or - 2K or 3K. Then it seems there are a few on the basket case / no engine end of the scale that are priced anywhere from say 3K to 10K depending on condition and completeness of the basket. Perhaps there are some priced in the 10K to 15K if they are flyable and in annual, but high time engine or needing work such as fabric. Somewhere there is an upper end of the scale but it seems less tangible. I have known of seemingly perfect Taylorcrafts with C85s and tricked out in other ways selling in the mid 30Ks. Does this seem accurate?

Then I look at my own airplane and so far, I have invested in the "average" range. The A65 is mid time. Sweet McCauley prop. Fabric is good but cosmetically, quite mediocre to poor - could be much better. It is very close to original as a BC12D with a squeeky clean paperwork trail. Maintained in good mechanical condition. New seat sling, new struts, other new items here and there. If I had to sell, I would expect to get maybe on the low end of the average going price. Probably not a break-even deal considering all I have invested so far. I am guessing this is like a lot of Taylorcrafts out there.

But now here comes a totally new set of circumstances for my plane. I am about to do a modification that to me will greatly improve the airplane. I will be adding a very low time SMOH C90-12F, Luscombe Exhaust, Starter, Odyssey Battery. I plan to end up with clean paperwork for all of this. Now... does this throw the VALUE of the plane toward the upper end of the Value scale?.... how far? What does that scale look like? I envision it like a bell curve... with the average plane being maybe like mine is now (before the mods). The lower end being ones in need of restoration... and the higher end being ones that are exceptionally perfect recent restorations or perhaps with mods that greatly improve the performance or utility of the airplane. For me, I am pretty sure that the cost for all these performance upgrades will never be re-gained. But if I ever decided to sell, maybe the only way to get a premium price would be to refurbish the fabric, sheet metal, windshield, tires.... But then there's mucho more $$$ invested.

I have concluded that anyone looking at ownership of a Taylorcraft as a profitable investment is fooling themselves. It seems the best way to look at ownership is to decide the features and performance you want and strive for it. The real VALUE is in the experience of this as a hobby. For many like me, improving the plane has to be a process because plunking down a big wad at any given time to have exactly what I want is not feasible. So, over time the cost adds up. You needn't worry as long as you are enjoying the experience and always getting the plane closer to the configuration you want. So the cost of ownership is absorbed in the hobby and the experiences of it all.

I think we all have to come to terms with this before we go into owning an airplane.

So... now back to Chris's dilemma. The real question is..

How does one differentiate the cosmetically clean airplane in average to poor mechanical condition vs. a cosmetically clean or mediocre airplane in excellent mechanical condition?

My thoughts are that the ONLY way is for buyers to press owners to allow a thorough pre-buy inspection (including a paperwork evaluation) with their own mechanic, preferably someone familiar with Taylorcrafts. Owners should accommodate this. Frankly, I would not buy an airplane without at least such a deal. Up front. As for the cosmetic issue, as long as you have a good basic airplane mechanically, the cosmetics are really left to preference. There is a cost to pay for cosmetics, but you're not likely to ever get that back.

Hi Terry,

Amen to that.

At best you break even.

I know some A&P's that do make $$ on them but they buy unairworthy planes that have been in storage for years.

They get them for a really low price, fix and sell. They are very much the exception.

Dave

[Pearson]

Re: Opinions needed

I am familiar with flex additive and high solids paints. I guess I am behind on the regulatory aspect of painting an airplane. I had the same thoughts as Dave Rude in his posting above, in that it was the specific STC that allowed or disallowed the choice of topcoats. It appears from other posts above that is not the case, my bad. Anyway you look at it, there does seem to be several "red flags" on this airplane.

[Chris]

Re: Opinions needed

Im putting my running shoes on now. Sounds like it's an overpriced iffy airplane. I don't want to get into a money pit again trying to make it airworthy. I asked him to email me copies of the last few annuals and haven't heard anything out of him. Maybe I asked to many questions and scared him off.

[Pearson]

Re: Opinions needed

Chris,

Amen to that! Have you considered a project plane? The advantage is that when you get it flying, you are intimately familiar with it and it is freshly restored. Obviously there is the drawback of the time involved, but I thought I would mention it.

[Chris]

Re: Opinions needed

Richard, I actually have thought about it and wouldn't mind it. I found a project that has already had everything recovered. From speaking with the owner it needs the engine gone through, new struts, painted, interior minus a headliner as he has already installed that. He send me a few pictures and it looks like he started putting it back together and bailed. A good 1/2 inch of dust on her. He is asking 12k!!! but he says he is negotiable. At that price I feel that Id have well over 30k in it when Im done. It makes me a bit nervous. Oh and it comes with an extra C-85 for parts.

[Hank Jarrett]

Re: Opinions needed

That one actually sounds like a much better deal, especially for that price. You might get him down some since covering and not doing the finish work makes for a poor job when the final coats are over a surface that was covered with dirt for a long time. You might not be able to clean the fabric for good adhesion and have to recover (not a deal breaker, since then, you KNOW what is under the covering). With the project, if you spent the same as the other one you end up with a better plane and KNOW what you have.

Hank

[Chris]

Re: Opinions needed

Whats the average cost of having one of these painted? Is 10k to much or not enough?

[Joe cooper]

Re: Opinions needed

Whats the average cost of having one of these painted? Is 10k to much or not enough?

You seem to be somehow attached emotionally to this airplane. That is not a good thing. He says his starting price was 25 grand. That was wishing in one hand and s$&@ing in the other. How are the spars, frame, brakes, on and on. The plane is worth as I said between 10-12 grand as it sits. IF, I said IF you take your time, a nice one will appear on TAP or barnstormers. If you were an AP.....and were doing the work yourself, maybe. Otherwise I'd move on or you will spend the next three years trying to fix this apparent dog , asking questions on this site and not flying much if any. It's a buyers market, be patient. I sold a trophy winner to a fellow in Arizona last fall for 21500.00.( N 43338)It needed new struts only. He is thrilled with it. Even made a video of it called " taylorcraft fun". Take a look if you have time. A nice taylorcraft will cost around 21-25 grand, depending. Good luck.

[Pearson]

Re: Opinions needed

Chris,

I agree with Hank about this sounding like a better deal. As far as cost to have it painted, the whole idea of going with a project plane is so you learn how to do what it takes to get it flying. I don't share Hank's concern about not being able to get it clean enough to paint, but obviously it would depend on what is under all the dust. Even though it is a project, I would still have a prebuy inspection done. And don't forget a title search.

As far as painting it, unless there is something really wrong with the cover job you should be able to just blow it off, sand it down and paint it. That is if there is enough silver or sun block already on. If you use something like Polyfiber's Polytone, it is fairly easy to paint if you are new to that process. You certainly don't need to spend 10K to have it painted.

[Chris]

Re: Opinions needed

Joe, we are talking about two different airplanes. Im in no way attached to any airplane. Life is way to short to have just one airplane/car what have you! Ill be patient and wait for a good one.

Richard, Id love to be able to do everything to get a project done. However, right now I think I may have too much stuff on my plate. Id rather wait for a good one and be able to fly it right away.
Ill keep looking and continue to bug you guys. Might I add that I have really enjoyed going through this forum and reading. Ive learned a lot and wish I had know of this resource when I had my first Tcraft.
My wife is ready to kick me out because I start reading and 3 hours later she's asking me if Im going to do anything today!

[Marv]

Re: Opinions needed

You may want to watch out Chris. Some women get as jealous of an airplane as another woman. LOL