Taylorcraft Factory Update (May 2008)

[crispy critter]

Re: Taylorcraft Factory Update (May 2008)

I'm sorry Hank but you are incorrect. I'm not trying to defend anyone but Harvey was the first one robbed to start with because he was never paid for the rights to the company. He has simply taken back what was his to start with and is now trying to clean up the mess left by someone else. Also,Harry sold parts under taylorcraft LLC,Harvey has his own buisness name making them comepletely seperate from each other. Harvey has not done anything worng other then sell to Harry to start with and like the rest of us,he thought he would get his money's worth. Everyone wanted Harry gone and new managment,now we got it and everyone is still trying to destroy them. I know the reputation of Mr. Patrick and D&E and I back them 100% until they give reason not to. The few people I have talked to that has delt with D&E have always got what they paid for and it is my understanding that they are helping with the startover. I praise them for taking on the challenge.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Taylorcraft Factory Update (May 2008)

UPDATE June 4, 2008: Please see a partial retraction and apology I have posted today, pertaining to this previous post.
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Sorry to blast you, Kevin, this is 100% not personal at all.

In my opinion, the reasons that Harvey is at least partly to blame, based on the consensus, opinions, and collective knowledge of this Forum over years of our collective experience, are:

He tolerated or allowed someone to do bad business while being affiliated with and supposedly financed by him.

He repeatedly continued to tolerate or allow someone to do bad business while being affiliated with and supposedly financed by him, when it became obvious that his own name and reputation would be dragged down too.

He tolerated or allowed someone to trash the reputation of a company that he was either an owner, financier or partner in on some level.

He did nothing to stop someone from trashing the reputation of Taylorcraft over a period of at least two or three years, long after it became obvious that Taylorcraft's name and reputation was being trashed.

He did nothing to stop someone he was affiliated with from apparently robbing people by selling parts that either did not exist or were not legally able to be sold.

He did nothing to stop someone who he was affiliated with from apparently making false claims, interstate commerce fraud, taking parts off of one customer's airplane and selling them to another.

He tolerated or allowed someone affiliated with and supposedly financed by him to likely defraud the local government of more than one city, leaving a trail of bankruptcy, eviction, and unmet commitments.

He tolerated or allowed someone affiliated with and supposedly financed by him to set up what strongly appears to be a massive, nationwide multi-faceted fraud scheme involving the FAA, over three thousand aircraft owners, falsified evidence, and false claims of manufacturing ability.

When faced with growing evidence and reports of these fraudulent practices, he remained either completely silent or silent to a large degree.

When asked publicly (on this forum by this author and others, and perhaps elsewhere) to address these very significant issues, and to make a clear statement on his position in all this... he offered no substantive response.

He (or his company management) publicly offered to sell products that were very likely already sold to someone else by the party he was affiliated with and supposedly financed. If true, this is essentially receiving/selling stolen goods... commonly referred to as "fencing".

When asked to make good on orders for products that had been sold by someone affiliated with and supposedly financed by him, he (or his company management) reportedly refused to honor any previous commitments that were made (until very recently when one set of struts was reported to have been received by Jim Stallings).

Now if any of the above statements are not factual, or if I have made any errors in my representation of this situation, or if I have overstated any wrongdoing by any party, or if I have painted an inaccurate picture of any event(s), or if the actions of any person or business entity have been incorrectly tarnished... here is yet another opportunity for anyone and everyone to offer a rebuttal.

Harvey Patrick, Harry Ingram, Mike Rice, Scot Ruffner, Steve Cooner, any and all of you are welcome to rebut this posting on any level. I know that I speak for the vast majority of the Taylorcraft community when I say that you are welcome and strongly requested to do so. The frustration and suspicion that so admittedly shows through in my postings on the subject are shared by many others here who do not write as loudly or as often as I do.

You can feel free to dislike me all you want for being the "mouthpiece" on this issue, but there is an issue, there is a reason for the distrust, and there is a long list of bad things that have been done which NONE of you have addressed.

That's why Harvey's ass is hanging from the same tree as Harry.
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UPDATE June 4, 2008: Please see a partial retraction and apology I have posted today, pertaining to this previous post.

[crispy critter]

Re: Taylorcraft Factory Update (May 2008)

Bill your rants are well listened to and I respect you always,I have taken none of what you said personally and even if I did I have no right to because you directed nothing at me.
With that said I would like to ask you a couple question followed with a couple of true facts.
Have you personally talked with Mr.Patrick or any directly in the employee of him? Also,how much,if any money have you lost to Mr.Patrick or Harry for that matter(please don't take that wrong,I am not defending Harry or Harvey for that matter....just the Taylorcraft name and those now trying to save it).

Now for the truth. Harry bought the 696 and 1A9 type certificate from Harvey at an agreed amount and done so on a personal finance(kinda like a land contract). Once the papers are signed Mr.Patrick has no right to repo anything until the depter has completly defaulted on the note. As long as Harry was showing an effort to pay there was not much the financer(Mr.Patrick) could do. Mr. Patrick feel victom the same as the rest of us,the only difference is that now he has repoed his belongings and is trying to make a go at it. Another fact is that Mr.Patrick's Talorcraft company is under one name and Harry had it under another. By law Harry couldn't use the same company name,rights,and liability without the permission of Mr.Patrick.Mr. Patrick could not use Harry's factory name for the same reason. The tooling,type certificates, and some materials are all that changed hand both times because of the PMA's can not be transferred from one company to another without the FAA being involved. Just because Harry had approval to build parts under his Taylorcraft name doesn't mean Mr. Patrick can just jump in and start where Harry left off. He will have to get his own approvals. Also,all the parts that had been approved and left by Harry are no longer approved under Mr.Patricks ownership. They all have to be inspected by the FAA before they can be sold or even given away(legally). I know I have worded some of this incorrectly so please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I have it all explained where you can make an understanding out of it. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shead when it comes to all of this but I have been doing a lot of research into the legalities since the TC's were put back up for sale by Mr. Patrick(yes,I had been considering it very hard). In short,Mr. Patrick can't legally sell any of Harrys left overs if he wanted too,not even for scarp until the FAA approved them or was satified they had been destroyoed enough where they could be reused on an airplane. The way I look at it is if Mr. Patrick is resposible for making and delivering on all the the parts Harry was paid for and not produced then we should be resposible to pay for them all again at twice the amount we lost to Harry. Mr. Patrick did not steal our money,he did not promiss us parts when Harry was in charge. As for him sending people down there while Harry was still running the show,I would assume it was part of the legal process.If he just threw Harry out he might have been in more trouble then Harry should be in. These things have to be done legally if you want to make it work. Mr. Patrick is just as much a victom as the rest of us. The only difference is that some of us lost a few thousand dollars at most,Mr. Patrick lost several HUNDRED thousand dollars(in legals and start up investment help) at least and if you count the fact that he never got paid for his product by Harry ,that puts Mr.Patricks losses well over $1,000,000(yes,a million),and now Mr.Patrick is trying to set up and make it work out of his own pocket and with the way most are treating him he is fighting an uphill battle against an angry mob!
Most people are asking why he won't come on here and comment or post anything.....put yourself in his shoes,most of this forum is blaming him for something he had nothing to do with and now they want him to come on here and comment.....be honest,most people want him to come on here and defend himself so they can lef thim have it. Mr. Patrick has not done anything wrong yet except fall victum to Harry. Think about it, call the factory and ask them about it. Let's see how he does and try to help make it work.....because we need the parts and the support of a good factory. This is my humble opinion.To each thier own.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft Factory Update (May 2008)

I have tried and tried to help, glad to see Jstall is 'speechless" Perhaps the old Amish story about the squeeky wheel is correct.
I too have been getting good news from Texas at times. "Let the buyer beware" and lets see what may happen. lots to catch up today .

[VictorBravo]

Re: Taylorcraft Factory Update (May 2008)

After speaking with a somewhat educated individual today, who has some personal experience with the Harry and Harvey Show, it has come to light that some of the language I used and assumptions I made in my numerous postings on this subject were far too harsh.

I "own" and will stand up for what I said, however it was explained to me today that Harvey Patrick is more than likely not in daily control of the happenings at Taylorcraft. It was explained to me that Mr. Patrick supposedly did not support the business tactics of Harry Ingram, and that he may not have been in the correct position to assume the responsibility from Ingram's actions.

As such, the responsibility to make public statements about Harry Ingram's behavior may or may not have been Harvey Patrick's direct personal responsibility. I did then and do now strongly believe that it would have been appropriate for SOMEONE at Taylorcraft to come forward and make a clear statement. But if Harvey were truly not "running the show" at Taylorcraft then it would have been the responsibility of someone else (whoever Harvey put in charge at Taylorcraft after Harry was booted) to do so.

It is my belief that serious mistakes were made AFTER Ingram's departure, and that the credibility of Taylorcraft has been completely destroyed by a combination of Ingram's behavior and those mistakes made by whoever was in charge immediately afterward.

HOWEVER, there is a fair chance that Harvey Patrick was not directly responsible for the post-Ingram errors at Taylorcraft, and I perhaps wrongfully let him have it with both barrels anyway.

Whoever offered to sell the struts that had already been paid for by other customers is an idiot, I stand by that completely. It still would be selling stolen property, bad business, and terrible judgment. But that person may not be Harvey Patrick.

For my assuming that there was a high probability that Harvey Patrick was "in cahoots" with Harry Ingram, which I was told today by a credible source is not the case... I apologize to Harvey Patrick and retract that portion of any and all postings I made on tis Forum.

I still believe that Taylorcraft needs to make clear, honest, and credible public statements about the many bizarre happenings at Taylorcraft. I believe it is a gross blunder for them to not do so, and to not be a part of this Forum.

This apology and partial retraction was not made under any threat, and was not requested of me by anyone. The "credible source" (who related the idea that I was incorrect about Mr. Patrick's position in this) is not a member of this Forum.

Bill Berle

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Taylorcraft Factory Update (May 2008)

Thank you Bill , I do wish that you had the time and opportunity to sit down with Mr. Patrick, meet and talk with him.
It was a great effort for him to appear at the forumn at Sun-N-Fun, he did and explained his position at that time. No one questioned him.
I know that it is better today in Brownsville than it was a couple of months ago. Lets move on, those who have court action pending against former owners have a great opportunity.