Commercial flight adventure

[mhorowit]

Was headed down to Gulfport/Biloxi yesterday on Delta.
As I entered the a/c I asked if I could look into the cockpit, got the nod and looked in. First officer looked around and said hello. I said "Hey, except for the yaw dampers it's just like my Taylorcraft". Their eyes lit up and they wanted to talk, but I had to get seated.
About Richmond, VA, someone smelled something burning so they landed at Richmond with emergency vehicles located along the runway. Stopped on the taxi way for an initial check and then to the terminal where they asked us all to deplane.
Wanted us off when they open the cargo doors (sudden rush of O2, you know). Well, four hours later we ended up taking a limo back to DCA. Humpf. - MIke

[Richard Boyer]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

should have flown Air T.


I have to fly Commercial ALOT. What a freakin hassle. Whenever I sit next to an AirlinePilot I always ask them if they fly real airplanes too instead of Greyhounds. You would be amazed at how many don't! After an hour in extreme Lazy-boy like comfort talking about small planes a few leave a little more interested in flying something small again. Hell, there is practically more room in my Tcraft!!!

I even had one that told me his wife wouldn't let him fly small planes!! What a shame. The whole lack of the TSA strip search before I fly Lil'T is quite invigorating!

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

should have flown Air T.


I have to fly Commercial ALOT. What a freakin hassle. Whenever I sit next to an AirlinePilot I always ask them if they fly real airplanes too instead of Greyhounds. You would be amazed at how many don't! After an hour in extreme Lazy-boy like comfort talking about small planes a few leave a little more interested in flying something small again. Hell, there is practically more room in my Tcraft!!!

I even had one that told me his wife wouldn't let him fly small planes!! What a shame. The whole lack of the TSA strip search before I fly Lil'T is quite invigorating!

I was an airline pilot and have been laid off for a few years now. As a young kid I loved my Taylorcraft and flew it rain or shine whenever I could. Now over a decade later and just turned 40 I have all the time in the world but I can't force myself to climb into that death trap anymore.

Throughout the years I have lost many friends to plane crashes. Just last month a plane went down in Alaska killing three. It was for a company that I was offered a job at last spring. Had I chosen to take it perhaps it would have been me at the bottom of the inlet.

It has been my experience that after reaching the airlines you couldn't get an airline pilot to fly a small plane again with a gun to their heads. My theory is that after realizing what real power and safety is like you can't imagine putting yourself in harms way again.

SkyHigh

[N96337]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

I was an airline pilot and have been laid off for a few years now. As a young kid I loved my Taylorcraft and flew it rain or shine whenever I could. Now over a decade later and just turned 40 I have all the time in the world but I can't force myself to climb into that death trap anymore.

Throughout the years I have lost many friends to plane crashes. Just last month a plane went down in Alaska killing three. It was for a company that I was offered a job at last spring. Had I chosen to take it perhaps it would have been me at the bottom of the inlet.

It has been my experience that after reaching the airlines you couldn't get an airline pilot to fly a small plane again with a gun to their heads. My theory is that after realizing what real power and safety is like you can't imagine putting yourself in harms way again.

SkyHigh

That's pretty sad... hope you grow out of that. I think you should look around you..I happen to know LOTS of airline pilots that LOVE to fly, and can't wait to get away from their job and the big planes to get back to "real" flying (their words) and jump in their small planes and fly. The reason they're pilots is that they LOVE TO FLY and LOVE AVIATION..it sounds to me like you were doing it just for a job...
Calling the Tcraft a "death trap" is ridiculous! If I'm having a problem and have to put it down somewhere, I'd WAY rather be in my Tcraft than one of your spam cans... been there, done that...and have picked up many other wrecks and rebuilt them as well... like I said, I'll take the tube and rag anyday, and I think you'll find a whole group of people here that will agree with me on that one!!
I hope you stick around here...maybe you'll pick up a better attitude, and remember how much fun that flying really is. Aviation has many critics, unfortunately... but it really hurts me when one is from "inside" aviation itself.
JH

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

That's pretty sad... hope you grow out of that. I think you should look around you..I happen to know LOTS of airline pilots that LOVE to fly, and can't wait to get away from their job and the big planes to get back to "real" flying (their words) and jump in their small planes and fly. The reason they're pilots is that they LOVE TO FLY and LOVE AVIATION..it sounds to me like you were doing it just for a job...
Calling the Tcraft a "death trap" is ridiculous! If I'm having a problem and have to put it down somewhere, I'd WAY rather be in my Tcraft than one of your spam cans... been there, done that...and have picked up many other wrecks and rebuilt them as well... like I said, I'll take the tube and rag anyday, and I think you'll find a whole group of people here that will agree with me on that one!!
I hope you stick around here...maybe you'll pick up a better attitude, and remember how much fun that flying really is. Aviation has many critics, unfortunately... but it really hurts me when one is from "inside" aviation itself.
JH

As a younger man I was completely absorbed by aviation. I have a four year degree in it and went on to fly the Alaskan Bush as a CFI, float pilot, bush pilot and forest service contract pilot. I went on to fly air ambulance, corporate and charter jets. My closing career chapters was as a regional airline and 757 pilot. Almost the entire time I was poor, pushed around by employers and in danger of being killed. I never made more than a mailman and today after nearly 20 years of daily effort am almost worthless on the current job market.

Most of my peers in aviation have been battered and abused in their careers to the point of hatred. I have watched in stunned silence as long time friends drop the yoke and turn their backs on a lifetime of aviation, never to fly again. Now perhaps it is my turn. My flying career left my flat broke with a family to care for and no future. We all love flying but at some point it needs to love us back.

Throughout the years I have been witness to many aircraft crashes and have lost many friends. Two were in Taylorcrafts. It pains me to write this but after owning a F19 and flying it on floats, wheels and skis it is my humble opinion that aside from the mentioned dead stick situation a Taylorcraft or J-3 cub is far more dangerous than your garden variety Cessna 150 and has almost zero utility. At best a Taylorcraft is little more than a sunny day ultralight.

Someday I hope my attitude changes.

SkyHigh

[Vasey fan]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Most of my flying buddies are retired airline guys, and for the most part, they're still flying the same personal airplanes they were 10-15 years ago (before thay retired).

Some examples: Bucker, Cub, Monocoupe, Citabria, Hatz, Eagle, Kachina, Stearman, Stinson, Champ, Acro Sport....you get the idea.

Everybody knows that the airline business aint what it used to be, but I think you're misplacing your anger & disappointment.

[crispy critter]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

It sounds as if someone (skyhigh) needs to go back to there roots and see if they can find themself again. The most dangerous part about flying weather it be in a t-craft,cessna,or anything else is the pilot. The pilot is resonsable for the safty of his bird,he is the one who makes the final call on weather a his bird is safe to fly or not. As for being abused by your peers,that's also your own fault for letting them treat you that way.If you love to fly then go fly,find a job doing what you love to do but please don't put down an airplane just because someone you knew was killed in one. I promiss it was not the airplanes fault. It is attitudes like your that is giving GA such a bad name and GA has done nothing wrong and is still proven to be the safest form of travel to this day plud there has never been any attack on anyone anywhere ever from GA. I know there are some GA airplanes still flying around out there that are in pretty bad shape.As a part time ferry pilot I can say that I have went to pick up airplanes that I left where they sat because there was not enough money in the world to get me to fly them. However most the GA airplanes we fly are very safe,especially the cubs,t-crafts,and like type aircraft because they are owned by people who still love to fly them and they take good care of them.IMHO these are the safest birds out there. Please do us all a favor and don't tell us our birds are killers because you have been kicked around and lost the love for flying. I'm very sorry if I have offened you in any way but your comments really offened me and I just thought I should speak my mind. If it wasn't for small t-crafts,cubs,etc none of use would have ever learned to fly at all.If you eliminate GA then all aviation will be a thing of the past(i.e. if you pluck a bird of it's feathers it will eventually die and will certainly never fly again). I really hope you find the love you once had for flying and I will personally be happy to help you anyway I can,just tell me how to help,but please don't put our birds down just because you feel let down.
One question I want you to ask yourself. When you were flying your little F-19 everytime you could,rain or shine, I bet you were happy then.I'll bet you didn't have people pushing you around and putting you down then. The corprate world was where the love started to fade and they are the ones you are laid off from now. The question is....when did you really start to loose your love for flying,was it while flying the little birds for the little people or the bigger bird for the corprate world?

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Most of my flying buddies are retired airline guys, and for the most part, they're still flying the same personal airplanes they were 10-15 years ago (before thay retired).

Some examples: Bucker, Cub, Monocoupe, Citabria, Hatz, Eagle, Kachina, Stearman, Stinson, Champ, Acro Sport....you get the idea.

Everybody knows that the airline business aint what it used to be, but I think you're misplacing your anger & disappointment.

You and your buddies come from a totally different time and situation than I have. My buddies can't even pay off their student loans from decades prior let alone afford to fly. We are broke and broken.

I am not directing my disappointment towards the trusty Taylorcraft I am simply stating the obvious. They have some shortcomings like all planes. Compared to a Cessna 150 they don't handle the wind well. They are cramped and your head is in the wing root. The seat position is fixed and seems designed for a 5'8" person of small stature. The baggage compartment is small or non-existent. The brakes work poorly at best. Stall warning is subtle and there is no aileron control. The lack of flaps is a disadvantage since you can't dump the lift when needed. It is difficult to get into. The heater doesnt work at all. Many parts are impossible to get. It really is little more than a novelty plane to be flown within sight of the home airport and only on sunny windless days.

I don't have the luxury of standing around the hangar with an EAA hat on and slack jaw about carburetors. When I get a free moment I need to be able to take advantage of it and fly. I need to sell mine in hopes of reviving my love of aviation. I need a plane with strong brakes, flaps and perhaps enough instruments to be able to practice a few approaches in. Modern planes come with nose wheels and are made of metal for a reason. I understand the attraction to old things. It is like those guys who prefer a Harley Davidson over a new Honda. The trip is the thrill. They enjoy the challenge of a bike breakdown ever hundred miles or so. I need something to fly often and in less than ideal weather.

SkyHigh

[crispy critter]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

I understand what you are saying to some point and I'm sorry if my venting was mislead however that puts me back to the pilot and maintanace. The brakes work well when all is kept up,the fabric is as strong and light then metal plus the tube from makes it that much stronger and more flexible,it does have to be replaced once in a while but that also give one a chance to open it up and see what might be hiding in those unseen corners that can't be reached on a metal bird. They stall between 37-45mph depending on rigging and wieght,they will wheel land fine at 60 if you have too,they will out cruise a C-150 and cruise with a 172 on 65 horses snf 3.5-4gph, I have landed a t-craft in 25 gusting to 32 knot direct crosswind(not fun but it will do it),a true F-19 has more baggage area then a 150 or 172,the heater.....you got a good point there,parts are still there if you know where to look. Last but not least,as for when I learned to fly and how much it cost....I'm 32 years old and have been a pilot since I was 17. It's all I know and almost all I love. I own nothing to student loans and "NO" mom and dad didn't pay for it all.
It doesn't matter weather I was working as a bag boy in a grocery store or flying anything I could get my hands on,I always tried to look back at the last job I completed and always do it better the next time. I always kept a positive attitude no matter what,I didn't pay any attention to the guy setting in the seat next to me complaining about who knows what...instead I always tried to find something positive to reply to his complaint with. If I had a problem with managment and/or the way they were treating me then I would speak up to them,not fuss and complain behind them to co-workers or the like. Keep a positive attitude,don't be afraid to speak your mind(respectively) and you would be surprised how much difference it will make in just a short period of time. I'm not saying you need to be a suck up...just don't be a sucker.
On another note,I do have a 1952 Cessna 170B for sell with a Horton STOL kit,800 tires,3200 t/w,3400 and change total time on both the engine and airframe,240 since major overhaul,etc,etc. $38,500 may consider a floating t-craft in trade.

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Crispy Critter,

I am sorry but I do have to disagree with you on a few points. The baggage in an F19 is small and difficult to get to compared to a Cessna 150 or Tomahawk. In a 150 you can fold a seat down or remove it entirely and put a full 120 pounds back there. With a seat removed I could lay in back with my feet in the foot well and sleep. My F19 has half the volume and that awful "bar" in the way and is limited to 72 pounds. The compartment is so small that it would be difficult to find dense enough material to fill that tiny space in order to reach the 72 lbs. Back in my 20's I use to fly to Alaska and back every spring and fall. I could put my bike, computer, TV, Sleeping bag, tent and other related personal and camping gear in the back of my 150 ( virtually everything I owned at the time)and still get a 5 gallon can strapped into the PAX seat. In the Taylorcraft the baggage is good for a jacket and lunch and that is about all.

As far as the wind goes they are as light as a feather and don't take turbulence well at all. Take off and landing is fine but once you are on the ground they are miserable to taxi. On their best day and adjusted by an engineer cable brakes are nothing compared to a good nose wheel and hydraulic cleveland's. A little wind during taxi isn't much of a big deal in a 150 while the poor taylorcraft is getting played with by gusts and often needs help to get back to the hangar. The disadvantages of a taildragger are well documented and as evidence to their inferiority there hasn't been a new production taildragger in a long time. Even in the bush when compared to a 206 with an over sized nose wheel the 185 was no match. A nose wheel plane can rotate sooner and have you in the air using less runway than if you had that long tail preventing you from flying.

Guys who love to tinker and work on things love the Taylorcraft since it gives them hours of fun in the hangar twisting metal and cleaning parts while the rest of the world is out flying. On calm June days you might catch an EAA tinkerer poking his head out of the hangar and might take the bird up for a spin for his once a year flying ritual. I however am a pilot and not a mechanic. My aim is to fly. I like the ability to open a catalog and order parts from a variety of suppliers and go. My taylorcraft requires the skills of a junkyard rat to be able to wade through old rusted and oily garbage in hopes of stumbling across something I could use.

Data and information on the Taylorcraft is meager to non-existent. The maintenance manual in a Taylorcraft is a thin 65 year old brochure compared to a Cessna 150. My flight "manual" is four typed pages stapled together. The words are widely spaced out in order to fill most of those four pages. It reminds me of one of my high school term papers. The 150 maintenance manual looks like a Los Angeles phone book by comparison and the parts manual is of similar size.

I was a huge fan of the Taylorcraft but have had to admit some of its shortcomings to myself lately. It will never be able to come close to the utility and serviceability of my old Cessna 150. The Taylorcraft wins hands down in the categories of style, looks and charm. They can easily find a place in your heart that perhaps is unwarranted. By comparison a Cessna 150 is pedestrian and boring. Trusty and usable to a fault. Safe to the point of boredom. When I was younger I didn't mind being scared by my Terrorcraft once in a while. Now at 40 with a wife and four kids I need to go back to safe, easy boredom. The Cessna 150 is a superior airplane. As evidence something like 4 or 5 to one were built and sold over taylorcrafts and most are still flying. The 150/152 is the plane that really has trained the world.

I would enjoy seeing pictures of your 170. I would like to send you some pictures of my plane. My email address is: [email protected]

Skyhigh

[Vasey fan]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Skyhigh,

I said most of my flying friends are retired, not that I am. They're just a bunch of guys I've been fortunate to meet, hang out & fly with.

Myself, I'll be 44 in a couple weeks. Started working at the airport as a line boy at 16, tried the traditional GA time building route. Folks couldn't afford college & I didn't think it wise to rack up $75K in student loans to attend ERAU or UND on a gamble like a flying career. Ended up getting an A&P while in my 20's with the last of my flying money. Spent a lot of time working maintenance for peanuts. Now 20+ years and a couple of decent paying corporate jobs later, life is looking up.

One thing I started early on, was to not work at the same airport I play at. For me, it keeps the work attitude out of my personal life. (Oh yeah, there's attitude. Rule #1: The pleasure of dealing with an owner is inversely proportional to the value of the aircraft )

BTW, I won't fault anyone for flying a C-150. It's one of the most underrated machines out there.

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Vasey Fan,

Thanks man. I mean no harm. I just simply am expressing my attitude that professional flying seems to have been on a crash course since deregulation. I am sure that there will always be flying jobs out there and perhaps even more in the future however I feel that most of the opportunity will come from a lack of interest in flying since most will not want the job anymore.

Working at a GA airport as an A&P I am sure that you met quite a lot of happy retired airline pilots with planes, but I can assure you that you have found a concentration of a tiny minority. Most are at the golf course or out fishing and could care less about small planes.

Thank you for your response and kind words.

SkyHigh

[Vasey fan]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Vasey Fan,

Thanks man. I mean no harm. I just simply am expressing my attitude that professional flying seems to have been on a crash course since deregulation. I am sure that there will always be flying jobs out there and perhaps even more in the future however I feel that most of the opportunity will come from a lack of interest in flying since most will not want the job anymore.

Working at a GA airport as an A&P I am sure that you met quite a lot of happy retired airline pilots with planes, but I can assure you that you have found a concentration of a tiny minority. Most are at the golf course or out fishing and could care less about small planes.

Thank you for your response and kind words.

SkyHigh

Yep, deregulation really started the downward spiral (thank you Jimmy Carter). I was in Dallas back in '82 when Braniff went belly up. The ramp was chock full of Braniff machines with all those crazy paint jobs - just parked. In retrospect I was looking at the beginning of the end.

BTW, they're not "happy retired airline pilots". They're a bunch of cranky old SOB's. Most of them couldn't wait to get out, but they still like to fly.

Two of them were standing on the ramp one day and looked up as a Boeing went over at FLwhatever:

"Look at that guy, he's going so fast, he's almost outrunning that thing that's following him." (the contrail)

"Yep, must be some kind of Superman."

"Too bad it turned into such a horseshit business, eh pard?......

[SkyHigh]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Yep, deregulation really started the downward spiral (thank you Jimmy Carter). I was in Dallas back in '82 when Braniff went belly up. The ramp was chock full of Braniff machines with all those crazy paint jobs - just parked. In retrospect I was looking at the beginning of the end.

BTW, they're not "happy retired airline pilots". They're a bunch of cranky old SOB's. Most of them couldn't wait to get out, but they still like to fly.

Two of them were standing on the ramp one day and looked up as a Boeing went over at FLwhatever:

"Look at that guy, he's going so fast, he's almost outrunning that thing that's following him." (the contrail)

"Yep, must be some kind of Superman."

"Too bad it turned into such a horseshit business, eh pard?......

Yup none of us are paid what we are worth or treated with much respect.

Oh well,

SkyHigh

[crispy critter]

Re: Commercial flight adventure

Skyhigh,
I meant no offense to you and hope none was taken. I just don't like it when people tell other people that t-crafts a bad for there health.Also, I've flown both the 185 and the 206 and you would truely have to prove that one to me.Maybe an old ratty 185 compared to a brand new 206???
As for everything else...it sounds like you need something metal with a nosewheel.The C-170 I have had the tri-gear conversion on it from 1955-1972.The gear boxes are still there and it would be very east to put it back on tri-gear if you really want to do that to a C-170B.If you own it it's your choice. I'll send ya some pics.