Gilberti conversion

[dan]

Hello there,
If a Taylorcraft has a 65hp engine in it, but has the Gilberti conversion done, can it become a F-19 by strapping on a 0-200. And what all would it take to make it into a Float plane at that point.

[paulp]

STC for Model 19

Dan,

You will have to replace the engine mount with the extended version(Moves everything 4" forward) and you will have to extend the cowling. I know that you can install an 85-12 but I am not sure what will be required for the installation of the 0200. Probably a field approval. If you go with the 0200, you will need different engine mounts. If you stay with the 85-12 you can use your existing mounts. When I did my conversion to the MODEL 19(not F19) I did a major on my engine and did the 0200 STC.(0200 crank, pistons, rods and bearings. In addition, I went crazy and used the new Milinium cylinders. Our best guess at this point is that I now have appx 106 HP. All I know, is that I can leave mother earth with 24 gal of fuel and 390lbs of people and be flying within 500' on an 87' day. (field elevation 1068'-DA 2100+)and climb @ 650fpm using a 1B90 McCauley 7154 prop. There is no comparasion to the performance of the 65hp. When I did it, I knew I was spending too much money and time. Looking back, would I do it again? IN A NEW YORK MINUTE!!!!!!! What I have now is worth every cent and every minute that I spent.

If you have any questions, I will be happy to try and answer them for you.

[Frank DeBartolo]

Paul,

Can you do the same overhaul you did on an A65-8 engine or do you need to start with the C85? If it can be done with the A65, what would the ballpark cost be to do that overhaul with the A65 core--the same way you did it with the millenium cylinders and everything yellow tagged.

F. DeBartolo

[dan]

65 to 100

Thank you,
I was wondering, did you make a 65 horse into a 106 horse, or did you make it out of a 85 horse. If you did it out of a 65 horse, if I could ask, how much would I be looking at spending for the major.

[Frank DeBartolo]

Also,

What is TBO on this conversion?

Frank DeBartolo

[paulp]

0200 STC

Frank,

The A65 cannot be converted using the 0200 STC. You must start with a C-85-12F. The -12 means the engine has an accessory case for the starter & generator. The F means that the crank has a flanged shaft. If you are going to do the conversion, you must use a -12F. Although the TCM overhaul manual states that there is no difference in the -12(tapered shaft) and the -12F(flanged shaft) the Harer STC(Gilberti Conversion) specifically calls for the 85-12F engine and there could be problems with the FFA if you deviate from the STC. The conversion will require machine work on the main case to accept the new bearings and the 0200 crank. New barrels will fit on the 85 case so there is no problem there. You asked about the TBO. It is 1800 hrs on the TCM, if the overhaul is a COMPLETE overhaul because at that point you have a 0 time engine. The cost for the o200 STC is $250. from superior Aero in Tulsa, OK. If you purchase the rest of the parts for the conversion from them(0200 crank, pistons, rods, bearings and overahul kit) that will run about $3500.00. Add to that whatever your A&P or engine shop will charge for labor. My total with the mags, starter, gen, and acc. case, main case, cam and new hydrolics being yellow tagged, new wiring harness, new plugs and new precision 10-4240 carb and spin on filter, new 0200 crank, rods & pistons and all new hardware(with me doing most of labor with my A&P/AI overseeing everything ran about $9K. Not cheap but well worth the money. Having the whole thing done at an authorized shop would have run between 12-15K. Anyway, with all of the other work that I did, I now have a brand new 1945 airplane that I am super happy with!

Any other ?'s let me know.

[Grant S. Bailey]

My understanding was that the case did not require any machining to take the bearings and O-200 crank?? Is that bad info? Do you use the three valve spring set-up or stay with the original two spring set up with this conversion?

[paulp]

machining

Grant,

The bearing journals do have to be machined to accept the 0200 bearings. Some think that since the 85-12 & the 0200 have many interchangeable parts and that since the same molds were used for the mfg of the cases, they are the same. THEY AIN'T!! Divco, Inc in Tulsa did mine and I beleive that the main bearing caps had to have the machine work done as well as the thrust bearing cap.In addition, the 0200 has two additional oil galleys that the 85 doesn't. Almost forgot-The new melineum barrels have 3 springs.

[captjon]

Paul:

Does the STC call for the 3 spring cylinders or does it not state. I was under the assumption that you use the C85 2 spring cylinders (really the only difference in the cylinders I have been told). I am planning on doing the O-200 crankshaft upgrade and have assumed that the 40584 cast iron camshaft is still used. Won't the extra pressure of the 3 springs cause wear problems on the cast iron cam? All camshafts after the C85-12 were forged steel which should be better able to take the additional pressure.

On the case issue, when I sent my C85 case in to Crankcase Services, Inc. I asked them if anything else had to be done to it to accomodate the O-200 STC and they said, "No". It is now a yellow tagged 6723 case without logbooks, but we now with a C85-12F data plate for it. We are building the engine up from scratch around this case. Should I talk to Divco about this issue?

I have also heard a fellow say that the through bolts should have helicoils inside the case for added strength as there have been some problems with them pulling out with the additional stresses on the case. Have you heard anything about that?

Where did you find the new Marvel Schebler 10-4240 carb? Last I talked to Precision at Sun and Fun they said they didn't have any new or any cores to rebuild.

Did you consider the new 30 amp B&S alternator...........that's what I am looking at. Talked to the fellow at Oshkosh at their booth and he said they would help getting a 337 for it in the model 19.

Sorry for all the questions, but I've spent the last two years getting stuff together for this engine and I want to make sure we have the right stuff when we go to assemble it.

Thanks.

Cheers,

[paulp]

85-12F 0200 STC

Howdy Jon,

Don't apologize about the ?'s. It's better to have all the info you can get even if it raises more ?'s. I'll do my best to answer all.
First, the Harer(Gilberti) conv. only specifies an 85-12F engine. The 0200 STC is totally seperate and applies only to the engine. I know that Divco did some additional machine work to accomodate the 0200 STC. Exactly what I can't say for sure. I know that some work was done on the main journal supports. I would recommend that you call Aircraft Specialties Services in Tulsa, OK 1-800-826-9252 and talk to Herschel or Linn. They can answer any questions that you might have re: the STC. In addition, they did my cam which was forged, not cast. Since they are the STC holder for the 0200 STC(or one of them anyway), they can shed more light on the subject. The new Milineum Power Packs(cylinders) are not part of the STC requirement nor are they included with the kit. I bought these because two of the cylinders that I had were not rebuildable and were of the 2 spring type. The new 0200 barrels have 3 springs. The new barrels were recommended by my A&P.

Divico, Inc did my main case(1-800-874-1351) and they work very closely with Acft Spec Svcs.(I think Divco has an interest in that company but don't know for sure.) I would call them and talk to Andy(the shop formam) He is very knowledgable and a nice guy to boot. He also can explaine about the machine work since they are the ones that do it.

When Divico did the case, they pulled all of the studs and reset same to factory specs. They examine the case very closley-magnaflux ect, ect. I know that I was very specific when I talked to Andy about the studs and the thru bolts and he said everything will be to factory specs and if anything is even marginal it will be remachined and the case will essentially new. He did mention that if the thru bolts needed helicoils they would install them but that would be determined during the inspection phase of the reman. In addition, I also had my assecory case redone by Drake Aeromotive in Tulsa. It is magneisum and Divco doesn't do magneisum. Drake magnafluxed the case and rebuild the oil pump mounting flange as well as the tach mounting flange.
God, it cost as much as the main case!

My carb came from Precision!! I called the factory and they referred me to a dealer in Ill. I'll get the name and # for you in a day or two. I had to buy a new one because they had no remans available. The cost from the factory was about $2300. The fact rep gave me the name of the supply house in Ill. and told me that I could buy it cheaper from them. She was right. My end cost for the new carb was about $1600.

[paulp]

85-12F 0200 STC

I wanted to go with an alternator but since my Delco Gen was yellowtagged I decided to postpone the alternator conversion. Let me know about the B&S alt.

One last thing, buy a new Sky-Tech starter!!! I had the Delco rebuilt and now wish I had gone with the Sky-Tech. It was(is) a pull cable type and the new Sky-Tech is about 4lbs lighter and is of the push button type. It also has more torque and spins the prop faster!!!

I also added the spin-on oil filter-The greatest thing since sliced bread.

I now have 70.3 hours on the new engine and it is GREAT!!!! During the first 25 hours I had to add 1 qt of oil. The second 25 I added 1/2 qt. I checked this pm and show no oil loss.

I hope that this answers some of your questions. I guess that I can sum up by saying that everything on my engine is yellow tagged or has an 8130 or is new. It cost a lot but I would recommend it to anyone-it's worth it. I am looking now for an autofuel STC but there doesn't seem to be one. I'm working with the EAA and the local FSDO to see if I can get one. There is one for the 0200 and one for the Model 19 but not one for the 0200 STC conversion.

[dan]

How to proceed?

Hello again,
I appreciate your patience and your knowledge in invaluable. I really appreciate it. I am attempting to buy a airplane, and more specifically a Float plane or one that can be made into a float plane. I live in Soldotna Alaska and can do so much more with floats.
What I'm wondering is. I found a nice Taylorcraft that has been overhauled in96 and is in really good shape. The problem is, it has the 65 horse. Ultimately what I would like to find is a F-19 with a 100 or 150 horse so I could strap floats onto it. The aircraft I'm finding in that area are needing fabric and some TLC.
Question #1. Is it smarter to buy a airplane that already is set up the way you want it, such as the 150 horse T-Cart, but that is going to need some fabric soon,
Question #2. Or is it smarter to just get a T-Cart in really good shape, such as this 65 horse beauty, and put a bigger motor on it since it already has the Gilberti conversion done on the airframe.
I guess I'm torn on how to look at things. If you could help give me direction on this issue I would greatly appreciate it.

[paulp]

what to do, what to do

Hey Dan,

Boy, you ask some tough ?'s!! If I had to start over again, giving consideration to what I know now, I would do exactly the same thing. If you have available a T-Craft that has already had the conversion done,(and I mean the whole conversion, with the exception of the engine,) you can get a decent, lowtime 85 for around $5-6K. I am assuming that the wiring for the starter, grounding lug and baggage compt have already been done along with the additional aux fuel tank and new fuel lines with the valves. If not, plan on another 2K. for these items and another $1K for the new cowling. Add for an engine mount and new engine cables and either a new tach or a new 90' drive that reverses the tach rotation so you can adapt the left hand tach. These items will be another 1K. You might as well plan on spending another 500-1000 on misc malarky because it will damn well be there, no matter how careful your planning is!!

The best solution is to find an already converted acft and pay the price because any way you look at it is a pain in the ass!!

Above all, be sure that the paper work is or has been done correctly and that the entire STC's requirements have been completed!!!!! HAVE THE LOGS CHECKED BY A COMPETENT AI AND DEMAND TO SEE A FILED COPY OF ALL 337'S AND THE APPROPRIATE STC's. If the seller says don't worry about it, it's being worked out-Run, don't walk away!!!

I guess, for my money, I would rather start with a project and do everything from the ground up. That way, you know what youve got and you can get what you want. Bottom line is a Model 19 with good paper work, a low time engine and in top condition will bring between 25-30K. You can find some for less, but there will be trade off's.

I hope that this helps. If it doesn't or you have other ?'s, let me know.

[jgerard]

Anyone know about just installing the c85-8 to upgrade a bc12d to a bc12d-85 non electric. I think the type certificate has some info on the differences between the 65 and 85 hp bc12d aircraft. I think they use the same mount and cowling, the gross only goes up to 1280. This is not the model 19 upgrade. Can this mod be done with out an stc because it is the same type certificate as a regular bc12d? Wouldn't you just have to show conformity to the factory drawings concerning the differences between the two versions of the bc12d?

Jason
N43643

[captjon]

Dan:

First, you wouldn't be happy with a 65 hp. BC12-D on floats for what I expect your needs will be in Alaska. With more power though, they are great, especially with the model 19 upgraded planes or newer models.

I have waited for over twenty years to get to my restoration project, Tami T-Craft. Now she will include all the best, including the complete Harer STC for conversion to Model 19, a newly majored C85-12F with O-200 crankshaft STC, B&C Starter and Alternator, and complete, down to every last nut and bolt, restoration. Then as Paul says, I will know exactly what I have....... essentially a brand new 1946 Taylorcraft BC12-D with a very potent engine!

The only thing I won't be doing is the float fittings, the decision being a difficult one as we have a summer place on a lake. If I didn't expect to be flying it back and forth from Florida to Maine at least once a year, I probably would do the float setup. There may also be another additional plane at some point for Maine.

Yes again Paul is right in that if you can find a really nice plane that is all set up for your floats, and with the appropriate engine, then you should buy it. Don't fall in love with her though until you are satisfied that all the paperwork is in order. I made that mistake and it is VERY expensive!!

When finished, I will have way too much money and hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of work into my plane. I am also finding that I enjoy flying better than rebuilding.

If Tami T-Craft didn't have significant sentimental history to her, I would sell her in a minute and have one of Harry's new 180 hp F22's! If I took what I will have into her and put it down on a new aircraft my payments would be very low indeed Keep that in mind if you find one you really like, but it needs upgrading, a new engine installation, or a fabric job etc.

And that may be another serious option for you to consider, a new F22. Speaking with Harry last Friday he tells me that he thinks he will start equiping all new F22's with float fittings. He is also talking with both Edo and Bauman about certification of their floats on the new planes.

Finding a "cherry" Model 19, or later T-Craft for sale is not easy. Most people don't want to give them up after they have put so much money and time into them. Good luck in finding one.

Cheers,