Wow, was that different.

[flyguy]

I just experienced something new and different in the way my 12D handles, performs, functions, whatever.
Quiet hazy day. Very calm, unusual here as we are always fighting our gusty #%$^&*#@$ crosswinds. I usually use a slip somewhere coming down final when I have a little extra speed or altitude to ditch and straighten out as I start the flare.
Don't know why, but coming down final and over the fence today about 55 or so, I kicked the thing around and slipped right through the flare until the last instant. Really nice landing. Easy. Smooth. Extremely short for having no wind.

Got back to the hangar and started thinking about it. What was that? That landing was way too uneventful. No floating, sliding across the ground effect or popping up from just a tad too much back pressure, even though I was at least a little fast as I started the flare.

It landed just like a cub, champ, citabria, ect. It just kept coming down like a fat-winged whatever. More back pressure, less down, but never flat or up. Slowing down so fast the wing couldn't do it's typical "just keep flying forever" act. Stick ALL the way back as it just plopped on nicely.

I think I just learned something new and interesting about flying a specific type of airplane. Have to check that out again, I don't think it was a one-time fluke.
DC

[VictorBravo]

Re: Wow, was that different.

It's not a fluke, I've been using that technique for years. Read through some of my old posts a couple of months ago about landings, slips, etc. and you will see a typicallyu long & lurid description from me.

[dennispip]

Re: Wow, was that different.

I'm no expert, but I am guessing that because of the benign conditions you had, you had the machine slowed down just a little more than usual giving it just a little less potential energy (airspeed) that was not available to be converted into lift as you flared. It just settled right down onto the runway perfectly passing right through ground effect without any flying speed left at all. That does not happen regularly and is difficult to duplicate, at least for me.

One does have to recognize that the machine is very close to a full approach stall condition when at that airspeed and that is why we usually don't enjoy the "perfect" landing often, instead having a little wait while close to the ground until it happens. Probably best to not push that envelope of safety too far especially when the winds and weather are not perfectly stable.

[flyguy]

Re: Wow, was that different.

Bill,
I had seen someone's mention of close-in slips, but they didn't mention anything about that desirable effect. I missed your comments apparently. It makes sense, I just never had done it that way before, and had no idea that it would completely change the flare in that manner.
Ya never stop learnin'.

About the speed Dennis, I actually was a bit fast as I came over the "fence" so I would have slid along the top for a while except for the drag from the slip.

Darryl

[VictorBravo]

Re: Wow, was that different.

I would have slid along the top for a while except for the drag from the slip.

JACK... POT !

IMHO the slip allows you to just plow through the flare without building up any excess speed. The notion that I posted previously is that when you let the airplane out of the slip at ten or twenty feet like most pilots, the airplane accelerates immediately again because you've taken the drag off. Add ground effect and an efficient wing to that - and you get that famous Taylorcraft "wet bar of soap on a smooth floor" maneuver.

Using the slip all the way through the flare, and using the slip to kill the float in ground effect is what allows you to get rid of that extra 200-300 feet of runway. It is not a maneuver for a brand new pilot because it DOES require some timing and a better "feel" for what the airpalne is doing. But the maneuver when done properly works every time. One screw up (by allowing the airplane to actually touch down in the slip) and you're on the phone to the insurance company.

When you get really tuned in to the airplane, you can actually wait until it just about stalls in the slip, three feet AGL and 20 feet BEFORE the end of the runway... and at that point let it out of the slip which will cushion the landing right on the threshold. That takes some practice and finnesse to be honest.

[dennispip]

Re: Wow, was that different.

So as I understand it now, you are holding the slip to both increase drag and decrease lift, kind of like using airbrakes and spoilers, all the way down and through the flare until just before the stall, then straightening it up just before it quits flying and stalls in the slip configuration. The stall speed in the slip configuration is higher than when straight and level, but as the ship continues to decelerate, and if timed perfectly, as it is slowing down you reduce the slip angle staying just ahead of the stall speed as the plane continues to slow. This all happens so you finally stall in a straight/wings level configuration right on the numbers with a brief roll out. I understand the physics. As Bill says, not for the ordinary pilot.

[Jim Hartley]

Re: Wow, was that different.

For me, if winds are calm and I have a wide landing area that is flat and no worries of hitting something in front of me when I have no forward visibility with the high pitch attitude, I will begin the flare for touchdown starting about fifteen feet above the surface. My point of intended touchdown is determined, so power to idle and I have five mph or so to bleed of during the process. The landing results with the yoke full aft, tailwheel touching first with the mains a few inches off the surface and the wing quits flying and it is a gentle drop to the surface with no floating. This is my preferred technique when landing.

Many people are uncomfortable with this technique and prefer to bleed off speed when just a few feet of the surface. What ever works for the individual.

When I fly an unfamiliar airplane my first order of business is slow flight with an incipient stall, right on the ragged edge...It is imperitive that I learn the slowest possible speed to stay airborne.

One mph or two can make the difference in life or death in a forced landing.

Jim

So as I understand it now, you are holding the slip to both increase drag and decrease lift, kind of like using airbrakes and spoilers, all the way down and through the flare until just before the stall, then straightening it up just before it quits flying and stalls in the slip configuration. The stall speed in the slip configuration is higher than when straight and level, but as the ship continues to decelerate, and if timed perfectly, as it is slowing down you reduce the slip angle staying just ahead of the stall speed as the plane continues to slow. This all happens so you finally stall in a straight/wings level configuration right on the numbers with a brief roll out. I understand the physics. As Bill says, not for the ordinary pilot.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Wow, was that different.

This all happens so you finally stall in a straight/wings level configuration right on the numbers with a brief roll out. I understand the physics. As Bill says, not for the ordinary pilot.

It's not quite so James Bond-ish, but yes that is the basic principle. In practice it becomes a reasonably smooth process and relies on timing and "seat of the pants" sensitivity. Not rocket science, but not for anyone asleep at the wheel wither.

[dennispip]

Re: Wow, was that different.

I can clearly hear "Goldfinger" playing in the background....Ha! just be careful up there and have fun!!!

[VictorBravo]

Re: Wow, was that different.

Well now that you mention it, Ms. Galore was indeed my flight instructor and it was she who taught me to carefully... slip it in... with finesse ! She was an expert at flying by "the seat of the pants", and I enjoyed many hours of instruciton in unusual attitudes.

[dennispip]

Re: Wow, was that different.

This thread definitely is living up to its title.

[jim cooper]

Re: Wow, was that different.

how about this....Get it down to about two - three feet nose UP just about stalled, then add just A LITTLE THROTTLE, pulling wheel back all the way, in effect slow flying it, then chop the throttle. It plops gently on runway. (Not reccomended on brisk cross wind. It works.JC

[akndrifter]

Re: Wow, was that different.

I was experimenting with a technique a couple days ago, where I would use the flare/float to my advantage. I was landing on a sand bar, and would flare, and was able to get her to break near my touch down aim point. The point was to use up as much of the "smack" as possible, and have as little energy as possible at touchdown. It was sure a lot of fun.

[flyguy]

Re: Wow, was that different.

Come on Bill, this was serious discussion, har, har. Funny bit.
Tried it again yesterday, but with about 8 knots right down the runway. Even easier and worked better than before. What have I been missing all these years, LOL.
DC

[VictorBravo]

Re: Wow, was that different.

You were just not tuned in to taking advantage of the little "margin area" of flying ability between the back side of the drag curve and stall speed.

Some airplanes have a very narrow and dangerous small window between the back side of drag and stall, and some airplanes like the T-cart have a safe, gentle window in that little area which you can exploit to make better landings.

No biggie, it's just one example of what your instructor (and all of our instructors) meant when they said "This is only a license to learn a lot more than you know now"