Take Off Performance Data

[akndrifter]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

I have a 65hp. The prop is 72-45 old mccauley The T-Craft does not get out as well as my 85 hp champ did.

If you flattened your prop it would do a lot better for TO/climb. I imagine just as well, possible even better then the champ. There isn't anywhere I can land (light), that I can't takeoff from (mostly my brakes don't work well).

[perryv1]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

2 years ago at the Greenville seaplane flyin,I was timed at 8 seconds!WOW what a ride!
I beat a highly modified PA 11 with extended wings and a high compression 90 hp engine!
last year he beat me
BUT THIS Year WE WILL SEE!

[Dano"T"]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

Clearly it was pilot skill

[gfortin]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

See you at Greenville next week. I will love to see you beat him aqain. Keep on trucking.

[Len Petterson]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

With a less when perfect A 65 and 76-45 McCavuly 500 ft on uphill grass runway and I have landed on a down hill and come to stop in the same distance with resnably good brakes. It consentration or you have to go around, the soner you make the desition to hit the trottle the better!
Yes I agree the stall angel is higher when the angel with wich she sitts on the ground. If I slip in a get a desent landing.
I hate pavment! Grass even if it is long and I have too cut it, it is my preferd runway surface, the tires never squechs on grass!
Speaking of brakes I need brake linning.
Len

[Jim Hartley]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

What forrest says is true and the only rule of thumb I can think of...?

As for Take off performance... C-85 ...800+ empty...10 gallons fuel...me 180 pounds...850 tires...55 degrees@ sea level and light wind ...3-5 mph... Gravel surface...distance measured on several attempts...180-250 feet. Mostly 200 feet plus...

Jim

Oh yeah! Landings were about 200 feet. I have good brakes and had a hard time keeping the right pressure to keep them from locking the wheels and digging in the gravel, causing hopping. On pavement I am sure distance would be substantially less although then I would have to be careful not to nose over. Bush Wheels would be the answer here.

Does anyone know of a source for or have take off performance data they would be willing to share? Data specific to BC12-65's would be perfect, but anything on Model B's would be useful. I have been able to find some performance data in the forum, but little of it dealt with take off performance. In lieu of performance data, are there any "rules of thumb" that can be used?

[VictorBravo]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

I routinely made tail first landings with my stock tire pre-war airplane. When I put 8.00's on I cold no longer hit the tail first... . which tells me there was a couple degrees of AOA that I could have been missing out on in a 3 point takeoff

8.50 or 9.00 tires: I would strongly expect them let you float off the ground a little sooner. Bushwheels even more. Having the airplane at a higher AOA on the ground than the stall angle allows you to manipulate it so the airplane can get off the very second the air reaches "flying angle". Having the airplane "within a couple of degrees" of stall angle on the ground means that you have to wait another second or two... because the wing cannot make the required lift until it is FASTER than the bare minimum.

If you put 5.00 size tires on, and the plane was at an even lower AOA, you might have to wait until it accelerates to 55-60 MPH to break ground instead of the 40-43 that should be the bare-ass minimum.

Another factor is ground effect. I believe the wing can fly at a higher AOA when the plane is next to the ground. The air "cushion" and the ground's effect on the "circulation" type flow does something. I'll bet that you can take off at an extreme AOA from the ground, and if you could somehow maintain that exact AOA the airplane would stall as soon as it gets out of ground effect. So having Bushwheels that put the plane at 5 degrees higher than stall AOA on the ground would likely allow impossibly short takeoffs, and you would have to immediately reduce AOA once the airplane was airborne.

[pasture_pilot]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

...I was fortunate to have had Russ Hardy of Amherst N.Y. build mine. jc

Hi Jim, Russ says Hello, asks how you are doing with the hand propping..Saw him today at a flyin lunch at D51.

[jim cooper]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

I don't do well proping my own airplane. Russ does his own all the time and has no problem. (He flys almost every day, weather permitting.) I usually wait until someone shows up to prop me. This causes me to not fly when I want to but the thought of it getting away from me, or my getting hit by the prop stops me. Twenty years ago I thought nothing of it. My nerves are not what they were! JC

[pasture_pilot]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

Hi Jim, if I may, a couple of suggestions on hand propping.

When I was having Gill battery problems in my C150 a couple years ago, I got a lot of practice hand starting the little Continental, I wasn't going to let a battery that wouldn't hold a charge for more then a couple days ruin my flying.

I learned a technique for hand propping solo, had to do this for a few months until we figured out it was a bad batch of Gill batteries, (went through 2 or 3 new ones)and not the charging system.
Replaced it with a Concorde, no problems since then.

Well, here's what works for me, the others may have some ideas to add too.

If you can 't tie the tail, (hard to do on a paved ramp) and no one around to apply brakes, and no chocks available, you can try a modified start procedure.

For me, this is an abreviated procedure of what has worked well.

First practice this with somone familiar with hand propping, have them teach you the hand propping basics, and then have them in the plane and on the brakes, cold engine, fuel off, and mags off, so you are safe until you get comfortable doing this on your own.

Please, always treat the area around the prop as a chop zone...be careful.

Do not try this if you engine is out of tune, or the idle is set on the high side, slower is better for idle speed for this technique.

Leave throttle on idle(closed) and fuel valve off.
Leave Mags Off.

Open the fuel valve for about 10 seconds, then shut it off.

On my 150, 2 pumps of the primer is all it needs.
Make sure plane is on level or facing slightly up hill ground.

With mag switch still off, stand off center in front of the plane, favoring the copilots side, and pull prop through with a downward motion very slowly, normal rotation, using only one hand, and using only 3 fingers, with just the finger tips wrapped partly around the back of the blade, (this is done so if it kicks back for any reason it pushes your hand off the blade, and won't break your arm).

Pull through 2 compression strokes or 2 cylinders like this, always respecting the prop in case you have a bad switch (and thus a hot mag!)

This will prime the intake and a couple cylinders with the fuel air charge, so now you should be ready.

Leave the prop on the start of the next compression stroke.

(Opening and then closing the fuel valve for about 10 seconds will fill the carb, but not let it have enough gas to run very long).

OK, now mag switch on, leave fuel off, confirm idle throttle setting again, make sure you and everything else is clear, go back to the off center stance(easier to get out of the way if it starts to roll when the engine purrs to life) and give it a quick flick, I use one hand with the three fingers as described above, and my O-200 will usually rumble to life first time.

If the idle is set low, 400 RPM or so, and the engine in good tune, it'll start right up and just sit there idling, won't roll forward or take off on it's own.

You'll have about 15 seconds to walk around and get back inside and turn the fuel valve back on before it will run out of gas.

If your engine isn't in good tune, this technique won't work.

Get it fixed first so you or the plane don't suffer.

BTW, Marty Rieman IA asked how you were doing too. Said he thought he did some work on your plane at the Jamestown airport not too long ago.

Anyone else have any starting suggestions?

[jim cooper]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

I used to prop airplanes all the time! never gave it a thought. Its only been recently (5 years) that after reading horror storys about pilots who had high time making mistakes, champs going thru hangar walls, taylorcraft taking off on its own, and LANDING by itself, in fair shape! Cub getting away, running into Aztec, etc. that I became nervous. Re: Marty Reiman....Great guy, excellent mechanic-AI, former PBY pilot in the big war, and no nonsense annual inspector. Tell both Russ and Marty I said HI! JC

[akndrifter]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

2 years ago at the Greenville seaplane flyin,I was timed at 8 seconds!WOW what a ride!
I beat a highly modified PA 11 with extended wings and a high compression 90 hp engine!
last year he beat me
BUT THIS Year WE WILL SEE!

So who won????

[perryv1]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

I did kinda,It turned out to be between me and a 90? hp j-3.and a Girl! at that (nothing against any of you female aviators,I know that most of you can fly better than I can)I did get off the water first and flew about 200 yards then the glob of air that got thown down the fuel line caught up with me and the old T ran out of forward thrust. now Im the guy that got it up but could'nt keep it up. If I had only gave it a couple shots of the primer I wouldn't have to put up with the Sham for a whole year.
All in good fun.
At least my yearly rival lost against her fair n square.
PV

[Robert Bradbury]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

I have a 65hp. The prop is 72-45 old mccauley (polished) The engine comp. is all above 76, I usually use only the main tank-12 gallons. I have wheel pants. The T-Craft does not get out as well as my 85 hp champ did. Its a little slower. I operate out of 2300 feet paved, trees at one end. The T-craft CAN be gotten into a small field where there would be no chance of getting it out. (slipping and. slowing it down) I wish I had an 0-200 on mine as it would be a great performer but.....flown logically, its a great plane, so much nicer than a cub or a champ! Clicks em off at 90 mph, 4 gallons per hour, pretty quiet and the lines of the airplane (to me) are good looking! I was fortunate to have had Russ Hardy of Amherst N.Y. build mine. He is the Bill Pancake of Taylorcrafts. I am NOT a bush pilot so a better pilot MIGHT take my airplane and get out of a much smaller field. As others have said, so many things enter into it, temp, wind, wing tanks filled? Solo or with passenger? I would be uncomfortable if the runway was , say, 1600 feet instead with trees, etc.( for a daily habit.) How many of you wheel land verses 3 point? I can never do a correct wheel landing! Always screw it up! 3 point on grass, I do pretty well!jc

Have a phone number for Russ Hardy ?

[akndrifter]

Re: Take Off Performance Data

...now Im the guy that got it up but could'nt keep it up. If I had only gave it a couple shots of the primer I wouldn't have to put up with the Sham for a whole year.
PV

Sometimes its difficult under pressure! At least you didn't bend a prop (or worse), like some of the guy at Valdez this year!!!