Great Day

[Ron Greene]

Today started out great, Marty posted that he had found my aircraft in a 1964 Sport Aviation Magazine and offered the magazine to me free of charge.

After getting home this evening I decided to take a quick look at E-Bay which I rarely do these days and I see some scumbag selling the L-2 DVD's which are available on Taylorcraft.org for free or directly from me for $25.00. See link.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Taylorcraft-L-2A-L-2B-and-L-2M-Drawings-Schematics-DVDs_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem230307971610QQitemZ230307971610QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear

If anyone knows the individual, he is also selling some BC-12D tailbrace wires right now, tell him he is lower than whale snot. If anyone has any ideas on ways to stop him I am open for suggestions.

[Ron Greene]

Re: Great Day

Marty,

Tell me it isn't you. I thought you were a criminal investigator.

Your response to me via ebay in regards to my inquiry about the CD's you have for sale is dishonest. I have only sold ONE set in your area, and that was to YOU. I have complete records of every set sold, and to whom, and to where it went.

Individuals buy things and sell them all the time, when they no longer have use for them. However, they do NOT re-label, re-package, represent as new and try to disguise the original product. Which calls into question exactly how many sets did you intend to sell? While there may be no LAW against what you are doing, it is certainly morally reprehensible.

I looked back through your recent post

http://vb.taylorcraft.org/showthread.php?t=5831

and the items you had for sale are the same ones our e-bay seller (schach!) from Springfield, Illinois has great feedback on.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=schach!&&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&sspagename=VIP:feedback:3:us

Please do not send me the magazine.

Forrest/ I am sending you my master copies of the CD's, I can only hope you continue to sell them for the foundation. The Claude Underwood info is invaluable on them and I had hoped to gather even more info from our beloved Dick Huish in the future. I am so disgusted right now the thought of giving any more of my time is out of the question. Please remove my name and address from the Taylorcraft.org site and add whatever address or entity you wish to sell them from.

As the economic times worsen I hope more of us do not let our values decay.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Great Day

thank you Ron, you have been a great asset, this is a major reason that I cannot share many items we have here in alliance. I was going to get into the copy write stuff , but felt perhaps everyone could get along.
I sold a few drawings and they show up as copies for sale every where. My only way now is to continue to offer the items here at the Foundation office and allow a member to copy then here for his own use and I put a stamp on them indicating that usage only .
Remember the characters from South America who tied the site up for many hours trying to download all the drawings.

[M Towsley]

Re: Great Day

To the members of this forum:

I received these messages last night from two unidentified individuals via Ebay messaging. My responses are posted after their messages. After receiving these messages I contacted Ebay via e-mail and via phone this morning to report their activity and to confirm if I should sell the discs or not. Ebay stated they had no problem with me doing so and noted it in the file. I also contacted the National Air and Space Museum regarding this.

To Ron Greene, (Please read this carefully)

I am hearbroken you have called me a scumbag and discredited me publicly via the worldwide web. Please be careful what you write. I sent my original set of CD's with my plane to the new owner of my L-2 when I sold it over a year ago. I gave your friend who quizzed me about these CD's his name. Feel free to look up my old N number and contact the man.

I came across this second set of CD's while going through my airplane stuff. As you have noted, I am selling all of my former Taylorcraft items. However, I do not have any tailbrace wires for sale on Ebay. I have no idea what you are talking about regarding tailbrace wires.

I have no idea where my friend obtained this set of CD's. They are a set of four CD's with labels I did not make. Let me repeat this, I have no idea where he obtained these CD's. He travels the United States and is well known in the Warbird community and could have gotten them from anyone. Let me repeat this one more time, I have no idea where he got these CD's. I assume they are not originals of yours. I did not know these CD's were the property of anyone except me. I have contacted the National Air and Space Museum via phone and e-mail and advised them of your alleged anonymous claim. I am still awaiting a written response, as they could not give me a verbal response. I replied not once, but twice to you asking you to identify yourself so I could attempt to simplify the verification of your claims. You refused to do so and then come onto this public forum and discredit me in writing.

I am doing everything possible with what little information I have in hand to correct this situation. If these CD's should have a disclaimer about reselling them, you should have addressed that when you made copies and sold them. What if I had wanted to sell my original copies? What if I had sold them through another venue? How was I supposed to know what you are telling me now? How am I supposed to address this while all you and your friend do is send me anonymous messages with veiled threats? If these CD's are covered under a non-disclosure commercial agreement I will refuse payment for them and give them to whomever was the last bidder.

Neither your complaints nor the small amount of money the CD's would be worth are worth dealing with you two ever again. (And I am pretty sure I know who contacted you to have you check the Ebay auction. Should I call you a liar over that?). The magazine I sent you was sent yesterday, please feel free to do with it however you wish. Thank you for painting me in such a pleasant light and think about this. If you ever have possibly made a mistake in your life, would you want it presented as you have presented this today? I try to do the right thing for the right reason. Have you?

Here are the messages to me via Ebay messaging and my responses:

Are these the same CD's that are sold on the Taylorcraft Foundation website for $25.00? $20.00 dollars goes to the foundation on those sales.

- navy22376

My response:

Dear navy22376,

These are DVD's I received from a friend. I used to be a member of the foundation and former Taylorcraft owner and my friend gave them to me to use. I no longer have use for them as I sold my last Taylorcraft. Therefore, I am selling them now.

Come on Marty you can do better than that. You even made nice labels for the disks. You are still a member of the foundation.

- navy22376

My response:

Dear navy22376,

No, I am not a foundation member anymore and I gave the original discs to the new owner of my L-2. I received these discs from a friend who also has an L-2. I held onto them as extras. I have no way of making labels for discs, nor have the patience to do so. You will never find me selling another set of these, as these are the only ones I have left. If you want to ask the current owner of my L-2 his name is Court Dunn and he lives in PA, just look up his N number. He got the discs I bought and paid for with the plane. I am selling off all of my Taylorcraft items, if you have not noticed. If you have any legitimate questions about this auction, please feel free to ask them through this venue. If you wish to take me to task over something else, please do so through my e-mail. You know how to get ahold of me. Thank you.

(Ron Greene's anonymous message to me that was unsigned by him)

Dear Sir, I'm sure that you are unaware of this, but the L-2 data
which you propose to sell was provided to me by the
Smithsonian under a non-commercial disclosure agreement.
The U.S. Government retains the right to prosecute anyone who
sells this material for profit. I'm not going to tell them, but
somebody might. So you would be well advised to refrain from
putting it on ebay.

You can verify this by calling the National Air & Space Museum
library if you wish.

otrcman

My response:

Dear sir who wishes to not identify himself:

You are unaware, then, I obtained an 'original' set of these from a gentleman who charged monies for them and donated a portion of that to a non for profit organization. I am unaware of what that person did with the remainder of the monies I paid for them. I am not the only person who has purchased these discs. There was no non commercial disclosure agreement present with my original set of discs, nor any with these discs given to me. No paperwork nor any agreement on the discs themselves. Therefore as I am unaware of any non commercial disclosure agreement and I only have you, an unidentified person who claims knowledge of this, I am dumbfounded as to what you want me to do. If you would like to provide contact information for you and the contact person at the NASM I would be more than happy to address this matter quickly. However, these discs have been up for bid for over five days with no other complaints and less than two days, one working day, are left. Please address the above issues, especially the non commercial disclosure agreement, in detail, so I can act in an informed manner. A veiled threat utilizing Ebay messaging does not impress me. They are my property to do with as I please, unless I can prove otherwise. I am not sure what to tell you. Thank you.

This is my response today to the anonymous Ron Greene after contacting Ebay and the NASM:

Dear otrcman,

Sir,

I have contacted Ebay, both in writing last night and via phone this morning regarding this issue and your comments, as well as you friend's comments. At this time they do not have a problem with me selling the CD's and it has been noted in their files as such. I also contacted NASM via phone and e-mail this morning to confirm or deny your claims. At this time they cannot confirm anything via phone, therefore they requested, in writing, via e-mail what I was requesting. I was advised they would get back to me in a timely manner, hopefully today. I wish to do the right thing and am addressing it at this time. Thank you for your concerns.

Note:

I received no further responses from Ron Greene nor his friend after last night, nor any response after sending this last message above. You may draw your own conclusions. I have copied all of this information from EBay and this forum for future use if needed. I believe I have presented my situation in as clear a format as possible. The only other reponse on this forum I will ever make again will be regarding the answer I obtain from NASM. If I am further slandered by Mr. Greene or his friend I will address that through a different venue. Thank you.

[Ron Greene]

Re: Great Day

Forrest,

It has been a pleasure, I will send the Masters to the Foundation to use as you see fit. Maybe you can handle them like you do your drawings now.

[Larry Lyons]

Re: Great Day

This line has taken on a life of its own. I would really like to see all the posts retitled to Stewarts or refinishing or something so someone doing a search of the archives later will see these posts.
Larry

[Joel Severinghaus]

Re: Great Day

Ron,

On behalf of everyone who has benefited from your getting the L-2 drawings from NASM and making copies available on disks and on the Foundation website, THANK YOU. The set I bought from you a few years ago was an incredible resource during my restoration, and I'm still referring to them all the time. You've done a great service to the Taylorcraft community.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Great Day

They have arrived here in Alliance. David Whitaker & his Dad & I will need to meet next week and discuss them and other issues at the Foundation.
Yes Dave your Dad & I talked this morning. Sorry about Fri & Sat would have loved to get together. ; did get a lot taken care of , back in the saddle on Tues.

[M Towsley]

Re: Great Day

(Attention: Forrest) and Forum

I just received a phone call from Marilyn Graskowiak, Chairperson of the Archives Division of the National Air and Space Museum. Since approximately 1996, four people have received microfilm copies of the Taylorcraft L-2 information. When a person receives the microfilm copy they sign an indemnification agreement which, in part, states they are only using the information for their restorable airframe, or a museum is utilizing the information for a display or someone is in the business of restoring an airframe. It also states the information is not for further dissemination and is solely for personal, non-commercial use. Also, the information is not to be reproduced or replicated by anyone. This agreement would also include Mr. Greene, no matter what his intentions were on this forum or for the Taylorcraft Foundation. He was not to copy or replicate the Taylorcraft drawings for further dissemination to anyone. Solely personal, non-commercial use.

Marilyn Graskowiak stated there needs to be an agreement with NASM and the Taylorcraft Foundation to disseminate this information. They can do this the correct way by having drawn up a proper licensing agreement. The Foundation can then disseminate the drawings via selling them, if the Foundation wishes. This is my understanding from my conversation with Marilyn Graskowiak.

NASM has no issue with me selling my extra copy as I was not aware of any indemnification agreements. I will e-mail Forrest with this information to make sure he gets it, as well as a courtesy copy to Marilyn Graskowiak.

I hope this further explains my situation with this issue. The only reason it became an issue was due to Mr. Greene, and his cohort in California, who contacted me anonymously via Ebay messaging, leaving veiled threats. It has been a pleasure dealing with many of you and I wish you the best of luck with your Taylorcrafts. I am sure Forrest will keep the Forum updated as to the status of the drawings being able to be further disseminated.

[tawadc95]

Re: Great Day

____ the feds ,they own to much of us already.Keep it quiet though as they might send us to Guantanamo for contraband copies.

[ROllerton]

Re: Great Day

ok thats enough. lets end this "discussion" and move on.