Riveting lesson and a question

[mhorowit]

Went to the Sat. morning coffee/donut gathering at the EAA chapter and got a lesson in using my recently acquired rivet gun. Works fine.

ONe thing quickly discovered was that the assortment of rivet sets was practically useless. Several would be good for flush rivets. one is offset but will work with 1/8" AN 470 which leads me to a question.

A friend presents me with an assortment of rivets and a shrug of his shoulders, so I'm attempting to determine what I have.

An examination of Table 7-10 of the AC shows head silhouettes; not diameters, just shapes. Most of these rivets appear to have the universal head shape (MS20470), but come in different head diameters; for example here's one with a .15 diameter, another with .185 diameter. so there appears to be something missing in the description - head diameter. Spruce sells AN470 with a .250 diameter head.

Does anyone know how head diameter is taken into account? If I knew, I'd know what rivet set to look for.

Taking the example from another direction, I have a rivet set marked "T101E1-12" . GOOGLING got me no where. I could measure the detent in the rivet set and imply a rivet head diameter, but without knowing how head diameter is taken into account, I can't order a rivet set. Anyone know how to cross reference rivet head size to a rivet set? - Mike

[mikerice]

Re: Riveting lesson and a question

MIke I may be missing something here, but the rivet head is meant to match the rivet set. You must have a AN3 or AN4 or AN5 universal rivet set to match an AN 3, AN4 or AN5 rivet. The head is not what you measure, rather the shank diameter of 3/32, 4/32, and 5/32. If your rivets dont match throw them away, and buy new rivets and rivet sets they are cheap!

To learn how to rivet in A&P school, you start with 2 pieces of scrap .032 aluminum (thickness does not matter, really), drill a bunch of holes then buck rivets in the holes. You must match the drill to the rivet ie, a #40 drill for a AN3 (3/32 shank) rivet, and a #30 drill for a AN4 (4/32 or 1/8 shank) rivet.

The length of the rivet is directly related to the thickness of the metal you are riveting on as the finished shop head of the rivet must meet specific shapes and sizes.

All of this is covered in AC43-13 Section 4-57, as well as Jeppesen "Aircraft Sheet Metal" and variuos courses on Aerolearn. I am writing a basic sheetmetal course for Aerolearn, but it is not ready yet.

[T.Taylor]

Re: Riveting lesson and a question

Hi Mike, I've bought several rivets sets fron the Boeing store and I think the "T101E1-12" is a company set for something special, like has been said, just buy some -3 and -4 rivets and sets to match, have fun, I don't know the smallest quatities Aircraft Spruce sells, but some rivet stores sell 1/8 lb. even that will last you a long time, after the hole is drilled and the rivet is in place, the rivet gun against the head and the bucking bar against the rivet, shove the rivet toward the gun and notice how the bucking bar is setting against the metal, then shove the rivet into place with the gun and the bucking bar should be on the same plane as when it was setting against the metal- make any sense??, soon as you set the rivet you'll see if the bucking bar was parallel to the metal, takes some practice, use scrap metal frequently, best to you, T.T.

[mhorowit]

Re: Riveting lesson and a question

MIke I may be missing something here, but the rivet head is meant to match the rivet set.

That's my understanding

You must have a AN3 or AN4 or AN5 universal rivet set to match an AN 3, AN4 or AN5 rivet.

I'll go an look some more- see below

The head is not what you measure, rather the shank diameter of 3/32, 4/32, and 5/32. If your rivets dont match throw them away, and buy new rivets and rivet sets they are cheap!

I agree, I shouldn't be measuring head diameter, but up to your message, I hadn't thought to look up AN3,4 or 5 rivets; I'd been focused on AN470. Perhaps that will be the missing nomenclature.

To learn how to rivet in A&P school, you start with 2 pieces of scrap .032 aluminum (thickness does not matter, really), drill a bunch of holes then buck rivets in the holes. You must match the drill to the rivet ie, a #40 drill for a AN3 (3/32 shank) rivet, and a #30 drill for a AN4 (4/32 or 1/8 shank) rivet.

The length of the rivet is directly related to the thickness of the metal you are riveting on as the finished shop head of the rivet must meet specific shapes and sizes.

He showed me how he made his own rivet cutter out of an old pair of dikes.

All of this is covered in AC43-13 Section 4-57, as well as Jeppesen "Aircraft Sheet Metal" and variuos courses on Aerolearn. I am writing a basic sheetmetal course for Aerolearn, but it is not ready yet.

That's what Sat morning was used for, except it came with donuts. Also, we investigated the importance of the 1 1/2D length of the shank and the affect on the end product. - MikeH.

[mhorowit]

Re: Riveting lesson and a question

I agree, I shouldn't be measuring head diameter, but up to your message, I hadn't thought to look up AN3,4 or 5 rivets; I'd been focused on AN470. Perhaps that will be the missing nomenclature..

A quick look thru Spruce under solid aluminum rivets shows only two general types: standard head (An470) and countersunk (AN426). There is no mention of and AN3,4 or 5 rivet. Perhaps those are speciality rivets?

So my question still stands, how do I define these wierd rivets? I can make a photo if that will help- MikeH

[VictorBravo]

Re: Riveting lesson and a question

A quick look thru Spruce under solid aluminum rivets shows only two general types: standard head (An470) and countersunk (AN426). There is no mention of and AN3,4 or 5 rivet. Perhaps those are speciality rivets?

So my question still stands, how do I define these wierd rivets? I can make a photo if that will help- MikeH

Mike, there are possibly hundreds of non-standard specially made rivets out there... but you will only be dealing with the 426 and 470 types on a T-craft.

People refer to AN3 or AN4 rivets out of convenience only, they are in reality talking about AN426 or AN470 "Dash Three" or "Dash Four" rivets. The material is also a letter code, the only ones you will be dealing with are AD which is 2117 aluminum alloy.

Sooo.... what you are actually looking for is an AN470AD3-X for a 3/32" hole or a #40 hole, where X is the length of the rivet. MS20470 is the new replacement designation for AN470, MS20426 is the new designation for AN426.

[mhorowit]

Re: Riveting lesson and a question

Hi Mike, I've bought several rivets sets fron the Boeing store and I think the "T101E1-12" is a company set for something special, like has been said, just buy some -3 and -4 rivets and sets to match, have fun, I don't know the smallest quatities Aircraft Spruce sells, but some rivet stores sell 1/8 lb. even that will last you a long time, after the hole is drilled and the rivet is in place, the rivet gun against the head and the bucking bar against the rivet, shove the rivet toward the gun and notice how the bucking bar is setting against the metal, then shove the rivet into place with the gun and the bucking bar should be on the same plane as when it was setting against the metal- make any sense??, soon as you set the rivet you'll see if the bucking bar was parallel to the metal, takes some practice, use scrap metal frequently, best to you, T.T.

Spruce sells at least 1/4#, 'cause I got 'em.

Nice hint, thanks -will give it a try - Mike

[fearofpavement]

Re: Riveting lesson and a question

Mike, don't expect the "cup" in your rivet set to be filled with the rivet head. ie, it's not an exact match. Let's see if I can reword that to be less confusing. There is a specific size set to use for a specific size rivet but if you put a #4 (1/8") rivet in an 1/8" set it won't fit perfectly in the depression. The set's depression is flatter than the head of the rivet. The sets are stamped (usually on the rim outside the .401 tapered shank) and the last digit is typically the rivet size to use it on. As stated previously there are all kinds of different rivets and they are identified by head markings. The rivets you will want to use will have a dimple (dent) in the center of the head. You may find rivets that have one or two x marks, + marks (raised or inset), raised dot (vs dimple) in center of head and so forth. There are round head rivets, brazier head rivets, etc. The 470 universal head or 426 flush head rivets with dimples in the head are what you want to use. If you get a rivet set in sizes 3/32" (#3) and in 1/8" (#4) it will cover the majority of your needs. If you were maintaining a Cessna I would suggest a #5 and #6 set as well but probably not needed for a Tcraft.