General maintenance discussion (split from EZ riveting thread)

[flykenken]

I've read a few of your posts now - asking about tubing splicing, riveting, what size brad (not nail) to use, what is and isn't structural, etc. Well all work done on a certified aircraft is to be done under the supervision of an AME (in the States I think its an AI). That means you should be speaking to an aircraft mechanic BEFORE you do something to your plane - getting his advice on how to do the work, his permission to do the work, and having him inspect it after you've done the work. Last summer an improperly maintained and inspected Taylorcraft (experimental I understand) went down in Oregon and 2 men lost their lives. Now there are 2 ADs and I hear a third on the way.

[fearofpavement]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

I've read a few of your posts now - asking about tubing splicing, riveting, what size brad (not nail) to use, what is and isn't structural, etc. Well all work done on a certified aircraft is to be done under the supervision of an AME (in the States I think its an AI). That means you should be speaking to an aircraft mechanic BEFORE you do something to your plane - getting his advice on how to do the work, his permission to do the work, and having him inspect it after you've done the work. Last summer an improperly maintained and inspected Taylorcraft (experimental I understand) went down in Oregon and 2 men lost their lives. Now there are 2 ADs and I hear a third on the way.

.................................................. ..................

Well, on a USA registered aircraft there are actually a lot of maintenance items that an owner/operator can work on without supervision. They are listed in the regulations. The mechanic signing off the majority of what Mike is doing only needs to hold an airframe license, not an inspection authorization. Mike is asking questions on this forum because he knows that the people that frequent the forum are much more familiar with his airplane than the average mechanic. So he is coming here to gather appropriate information and also because this is where the people are that have gone through the same struggles and issues he is facing in this major rebuild/refurbishment he has been working on for a long time. So if he nails his ribs on instead of brading his ribs on let's consider that a potato/potahto thing. And there are hundreds of Taylorcrafts flying with nails in their ribs...

[mhorowit]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

I've read a few of your posts now - asking about tubing splicing, riveting, what size brad (not nail) to use, what is and isn't structural, etc. Well all work done on a certified aircraft is to be done under the supervision of an AME (in the States I think its an AI). That means you should be speaking to an aircraft mechanic BEFORE you do something to your plane - getting his advice on how to do the work, his permission to do the work, and having him inspect it after you've done the work. Last summer an improperly maintained and inspected Taylorcraft (experimental I understand) went down in Oregon and 2 men lost their lives. Now there are 2 ADs and I hear a third on the way.

Ken - trust me on this; after I do a repair, my AI signs off on it. In some cases I'll show him the repair mid-way so he can see something that will be covered by another operation. But thanks for your thoughts. I have a landing gear that has sat for a year and a half now as I practice a weld which I"m not satisfied with. - MIke

[flykenken]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Rather than focus on nails/brads and minor repairs or whether it is AI or A&P think about what you are qualified to do. Splicing/repairing /welding clusters and investigating corrosion/cracks are major concerns. And yes, there are hundreds of tcrafts flying and are now affected by the one that lost its wing.

[mhorowit]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Rather than focus on nails/brads and minor repairs or whether it is AI or A&P think about what you are qualified to do. Splicing/repairing /welding clusters and investigating corrosion/cracks are major concerns. And yes, there are hundreds of tcrafts flying and are now affected by the one that lost its wing.

we may be miscommunicating - I don't think we're disagreeing. any major repair gets discussed with my A&P incl. "how to", he looks over my practice and tells me to keep practicing, and one day he will say "that's a good weld, go ahead and tackle the "x". Then he inspects the work - and in the case of a landing gear, he said go back to the drawing board.

I rebuilt my aileron spars and reassembled the ailerons with some repairs to the sheetmetal, but not without close and continuous contact with my A&P. Of course, the forum is a great source of information since others have gone before and they can point out what not to do. Nothing you said is incorrect - you are just hearing the Internet side of what's going on.

and the one that lost it's wing..... was that because an amateur did the inspection?
- Mike

[flykenken]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

The service bulletin regarding lift strut was issued by the Taylorcraft factory previous to the accident. Several unfortunate comments were made on this forum regarding that SB. They did not discuss the merits of the SB but focused on the motives of the factory for issuing the SB. Pictures of the lift struts from the accident have been posted on this website. The pictures speak for themselves. Ask yourself whether "experts" examined these struts. As for miscommunication I can assure you there is no miscommunication or misunderstanding on my part.

[flylo]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Now there are 2 ADs and I hear a third on the way.

What third AD are you referring to? Eric

[Pearson]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Yes, you sure got my attention. What "third" AD are you referring to?

[VictorBravo]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Ask yourself whether "experts" examined these struts.

By definition, an expert (Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic with Inspection Authorization) examined that airplane and signed it off. However, the extent of the corrosion and what appears to be obvious external signs of damage... led most of us to believe that the airplane had been "pencil whipped" for a long time. From the photos it seemed that a student pilot should have caught that on his first pre-flight, much less a pilot, much less an instructor, much less a mechanic, much less an IA.

The error being made by some people in THAT particular incident is that some people were/are treating it like a Taylorcraft-related problem instead of an "aging GA fleet problem" or a pencil whipping problem. It's fairly safe to say that any steel tube airplane in the same situation (serious dereliction of duty by the maintenance inspector and maintenance personnel) would have equally been an accident waiting to happen. Any more experienced mechanic/inspector who believes otherwise please feel free to correct me if I missed something.

I was one of the people who made very frequent negative comments about the SB and AD. The gripe I had was that certain people wanted to position this tragedy as though it was a Taylorcraft specific problem, and in my opinion it was not. All steel tube airplanes of this vintage need to be looked at more closely, maintained better, and more frequently than before.

Allowing people to think that just complying with any one SB or AD (or just buying new struts) solves this issue... is wrong and that frame of mind will kill more people. We're flying airplanes that are about 50 years past their "best if used by" date. That is the real problem, IMHO, and it is now just starting to be addressed by the FAA with their recent and very appropriate "aging aircraft" pamphlet.

[Buell Powell]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

The service bulletin regarding lift strut was issued by the Taylorcraft factory previous to the accident. Several unfortunate comments were made on this forum regarding that SB. They did not discuss the merits of the SB but focused on the motives of the factory for issuing the SB. Pictures of the lift struts from the accident have been posted on this website. The pictures speak for themselves. Ask yourself whether "experts" examined these struts. As for miscommunication I can assure you there is no miscommunication or misunderstanding on my part.

I think you are confussing the fitting SB/AD with with the lift strut SB/AD. May have missed it but I haven't seen any pictures of the lift struts from that accident and they were OK. Another AD?

[flylo]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Now there are 2 ADs and I hear a third on the way.

Ken,Come on now. You brought up a third AD, what is it?

[mulwyk]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Ken:
There are several A&P's that frequent this forum (I'm one of them). All have been generous in offering their counsel. Everyone can learn, offer their own or disagree. That seems a healthy thing, yes?

It's the guy that's not asking questions that we need to worry about.

[VictorBravo]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

It's the guy that's not asking questions that we need to worry about.

Very much so, well said Bob !

[flykenken]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

I figure the 3rd Ad will come from a tcraft that is maintained the cheap and easy way. I've seen too many people get stuck over the years buying planes that had improperly done work on them. I don't mind people asking for and getting good advice and taking the time and effort or pay to do the work right. It is another thing to pay for someone that can't be bothered to do the work right. It is expensive to keep 60 year old vehicles of any kind running. Having flown the BC coast in wheel and float planes over the years, corrosion has always been a matter to be taken seriouslly on all planes new and old.

[fearofpavement]

Re: EZ Flush riveting???

Ken, I agree that corrosion can be an issue. Especially in a salty coastal environment. I used to fly out of Skagway but don't recall much corrosion issues on the aircraft. (didn't operate on floats though)

Also used to fly the Atchafalaya Basin of southern Louisiana and we used to wash the floatplanes everday as we operated in brackish or salt water.

Many aircraft even in relatively dry areas can get corrosion from neglect (letting tall grass grow up around the plane, etc.) So it is always something to be on the watch for.

I think the issue some people on this forum have with some ADs that have been issued in recent years is that they are for inspection of items that are already supposed to be inspected. It's hard to legislate away stupidity, ignorance and apathy. I think more than average the owners of T-crafts and other similar vintage aircraft are involved with the maintenance process and generally it is their own butt that is in the sling (literally speaking) so they have a vested interest in having a safe plane.