Organization

[flyguy]

No intention to incite or insult, but there seems to be no attempt here to organize this group or T owners in general. I made one suggestion elsewhere and there wasn't even a single comment on the possibility of bringing a little organized force to the problem.

Like contacting the AOPA as a group.

File a class-action suit against Taylorcraft to make available the source and history of the faulty struts on which this action was based.

Some formal complaint on the part of owners as a group about the failure of the FAA to give adequate notice to the owners of a pending AD.

There is likely a dozen actions similar to this that can be taken, but can not be done to any effect by individuals. Many will be futile, but if we swing a big enough axe there will be a weakness in even the best bureaucratic/corporate armor.

Aren't you guys pi**ed about being steamrolled by a bureaucratic juggernaut that is really only interested in going about business as usual, dotting the I's and crossing the T's and to h**l with who gets smashed under.

AS INDIVIDUALS WE WILL BE THOROUGHLY SHAFTED.

DC

[Guest]

Re: Organization

I am not pissed.

9 years ago this issue was on the table.

Bob Harer (former t-craft ops manager) told me this week that he was calling for this years ago.

I just don't like the test procedure.

I have a new one under consideration that I will propose.

I was thinking of buying the test equipment to do it it for others.

Will cost $3k-4K. Not sure if its worth it for me or customers though.

[cpirrmann]

Re: Organization

Is the AOPA located in Massachussetts?

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Seriously, where would we start, who would we pick to lead and organize? The only attorneys I know of that bring class-action suits do so in order to receive large awards which they wouldn't singularly. They probably wouldn't do it just for the release of information, and as for monetary damages from Taylorcraft LLC, get in line. Some states don't allow class-action law suits, I believe.

Official routes, such as Congress, etc. I don't know if we're a big enough voting block and GA flying is already much maligned by the press, so I don't think we'll get any help there. In short, our axe may not be big enough.

However, true power devolves from a mandate by the masses. WE give power to the FAA. It's up to us whether we follow their rules. The only way they can truly stop us is to put is in jail and they don't have the resources to police all of GA. We follow a 'higher' law.

I've said the negative bits, but I'm willing to try with you. Mind you, it might just be better to 'stay under the radar' and carry on.

[flyguy]

Re: Organization

Drude: OK. I personally have removed the fabric from around the my attach fittings and inspect and refinish them regularly. My struts still have linseed oil dripping out the bottom and I check them with the simple tools that I have for doing it. Glad to see you are on top of things. It appears that most of us were blindsided.

Cpirrman (I'm really curious as to what that means LOL)

You may well be correct about keeping our heads down. It has worked well for me in dealing with the powers that be in the past. I hope that if we act as a group that we could in fact still keep our heads down as individuals.

Let us see what the consensus of replies here is, if any.
DC

[VictorBravo]

Re: Organization

There is already the basic tools and structure of a real "organization" in place already. The changeover from Foundation AND Owner's Club to just one entity is the first step.

Assuming Forrest is willing to put in the amount of time, most of us would be happy to have him in charge, with help from five or ten others to assist or ramrod certain tasks.

There are three thousand registered T-crafts, and my guess is a thousand or fifteen hundred active. If we had half of those people on this Forum that's 700-800 voices speaking as one.

I don't know if there's money to justify a big class action suit, but a quick ex parte motion to compel the factory to produce the data behind the SB, based on the "interim harm" that would be done to hundreds of aircraft owners could fly. I dunno... There's one or two attorneys around here that might weigh in on the subject.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Organization

Not that I'm suggesting the FAA is taking this tact, but I've seen it and use it myself in many forums. Sometimes a comment period is used for other purposes than to gain insight. Sometimes it is used to gather so many varied opinions that these opinions begin to cancel each other out. In political terms... it is called 'Bubba Baiting." Stir people up so that the craziest nastiest most provocative
anger-mongers take the lead. Then the governmental body will say to themselves... "These people are just crazy... we can never please them... so let's do as we please. There is no satisfying the rabble." I think this ploy was part of the
Illegal Immigration debate... which so far has remained unproductive. I've asked for temperence in our comments for just this reason. So that we can achieve a productive and reasoned resolution.
Don't be baited into foolishness. Particularly don't bait each other. Do come to a reasonable and collective decision. If this Owners Group can help... then we all the better for it. If we are simply "baiting' each other then we all pay the consequence. Be thorough in your analysis... be reasoned in your approach... be of one mind and one voice. (AND in this I think this group is attempting these things.) Then our chances of being heard are better. AND, perhaps this organization idea has merit.

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[flyguy]

Re: Organization

Pretty good ideas I see here. I'm not sure whether we need to be a formal organization as such or just get us all moving in one direction and take some FIRM action.

Ed. I like your comments on keeping our cool. Sounds like the appropriate attitude to have. (even though I'm still po'd about the way it was done.)

Bill: Though I have heard of ex parte I'm not really familiar with the process.

If we suspect Harry et. al. of making a self-serving move that was financially motivated (imagine that) and supported by "selected" parts, it might be worthwhile to jerk their chain a bit. Just to see what comes up.

I'm going to simmer on this and see if I can think of more things to do and how to do them. I'm probably in a better position timewise than many here as none of the projects that I am working on presently have to be done at at particular time.

DC

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Organization

To me there are 2 similar and therefore analogous cases. Citabria's/Champs/taildragger Bellancas in the 90s. The new Champion American Factory was probably the root of the AD issue. For awhile it looked like all the wood wings were going to be trashed for the new aluminum wings. My plane was grounded for months. The other example is the Beech-Bonanza Tailbrace issue of the mid-80s. I owned both planes during the AD issue... thought the fixes were not the best but since everybody was arguing about superfulous issues... like the factory the "bad guy", was The Mike Smith tailbrace as good as the factory fix (actually it was probably a better fix) Anyway -- the finger pointing and blaming... the distrust and fear mongering... the out and out goofiness of people telling the FAA, the factory, each other... that they were stupid, errogant, #@%T-Heads... meant those who knew couldn't get heard over the din of those who were yelling about how bad "they felt" and angry they were.

When it comes down to it... The FAA will tell us what we will do. For the next 3 month we can tell them what we think. We shouldn't tell them what we won't do... as in compliance, why we hate them, what awful thing happened to so-and-so and we're still holding a grudge about it... that sort of thing. Speak slowly, clearly, write with analytical precision... in unision... and we'll get the best if not the most perfect outcome.

Please take this from someone who bought 2 annuals in one year on a Citabria and owned both the Mike Smith and then the Beechcraft Bonanza tail cuffs...
both ADs were expensive... and needlessly so.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[ClipWing_T]

Re: Organization

Hello all,
It really dose seem unfair to codemn the whole fleet Taylorcrafts
(the ones that the AD applies too) , Because of a unairworhty aircraft
that MAYBE had poor maintenece inspections. That AI has to look in
the mirror every morning knowing that two men perished because of
something he missed. I think it was Forrest who said the airframe was
a piece of JUNK. You could take ANY poorly maintained 60 year old
airplane and have this happen.Some may say......."That aircraft was
maintained properly ! ". Well if so , Why did those men lose their
LIVES ? I am sure in retrospect the AI and owner of that plane would
not be so casual about the last annual if they had it to do over again.
Could there be other T-Crafts ready to let go?? Of course ! .........
But as i said earlier ....Should the FAA codemn the whole fleet because
of ONE poorly maintained POS airplane ? We i sandblasted my 1945
BC12-D airframe I looked with a magnifying glass VERY closely,Especially
at the strut fittings. IT is in practically perfect condition. (perfect being
a NEW fuselage). I am VERY careful about struts and strut attach points.
I lost a buddy in the late 80's named Craig Bliss due to a strut failure
on a NEWLY restored 85 hp J-3 Cub. It was a beautiful airplane too.
He flew the hellout of that airplane and was so proud of it. He bought a
Stearman and decided to sell the Cub. A man came and looked at the
airplane and bought it on the spot. He asked Craig to fly the patch with
him and make sure he could still fly a Cub. They were about a mile from
the airport and it was observed fromthe ground that the wing folded up
and back while doing a wing over. Craig was an excellent pilot and had
flown many hours of acro and when the plane lost its wings .........He
still had the survival instinct enough,and control enough to fly the plane
to a pond and crach into it ........Of course both were killed on impact.
All of us were shocked beyond belief to say the least. It was found out
LATER that the AI who had restored the plane from him bought a second
hand pair of STRUTS ............I know nothing wrong with USED parts.
BUT !, These struts were RUSTY inside the threads where the strut fork
screws in. The AI's helper tries to screw in the fork and it wouldn't go in
very far, So what does he do?.........Why he gets a tap and cleans the
threads out and THEN the strut fork screws right in ..........Very nicley.
AFTER the accident the FAA finds that the strut that had let go had
only 3-4 threads holding the load ! ........When Craig loaded the plane
down for the buyer check out and then porbably put 2-3 g's on that
pull-out from the wingover......the Strut fork pulled through. It seems
that most Cubs who lost wings were due to POOR maintinence and parts
that should have been thrown in the trash . I am POSITIVE that if Craig
and the AI would have known the strut wasn't airworthy they would have
put NEW ones on in an instant. Kinda funny how that damn hindsight is
ALWAYS 20/20 ! .........I had a 150hp PA-20 at the time that I rolled
looped and basically flew the hell out of, and obviously a GOOD original
strut IS AIRWORHTY.......But with 65 year old airplanes we are in a
damned if you do and damned if you don't situation with the FAA .
And some will make $$$$.$$ if the T-Craft AD stands. And lawyers will
make $$$$$$$$$ and Parts suplliers I am sure are hoping like hell the AD
stands $$$$$$$....this is the good ole USA ! IT still pisses me that ONE
airplane will cost ALL . Where does the responsiblilty come from .........
OOOOOPS ! ! .......I forgot we don't take responsibility here anymore .It
always is SOMEONE else's fault ! .................................................. ..
I guess it was Tonka toy companies fault when ole MIKE here took his
Tonka truck and bashed the head of my cousin Steve's head and he had
to have stitches ! You know that toy company shouldn't make toys out
of metal ........LOLOL.......(MY mama beat my butt and I never did that
again! lol)..............Hey guys these comments are MINE and I and
are not worth the time it took you to read them........

Mike

[Chet Peek]

Re: Organization

Bill Berle Could you send me your E-Maill address. I'd like to vilsit about sometling and don't know how else to contact you. Chet Peek, [email protected]