Used aircraft help

[depfer]

Being new to this entire field, I have just started researching buying a used plane. There appears to be several books available on the subject. Can anyone recomment a specific book ? Also is there any web site thats best to look for used planes. (I have printed out some articles from the AOPA site).

Thanks,
Jim

[fearofpavement]

Re: Used aircraft help

There are a number of resources available but many books address a specific type of aircraft. It appears that this early in the process you will need to work through some of the basics as to what you want, need, expect, etc from an aircraft and then you can narrow down the choices. At that point you could acquire some references with specific information of the type of aircraft you are looking for. A couple of basics, the fact that you are on this forum means you have tapped into a pretty large reservoir of information and resources primarily relating to Taylorcrafts but not limited to that. Ie, many on this forum have experience and knowledge in a multitude of aircraft and would be willing to share that info with you.

Anyway, back to the couple of basics I referred to: One is that you want to seek counsel and advice from someone that does not have a vested interest. Ie, if they have an airplane for sale, that will be the best one for you. I think you get the point. The second thing is that you should never buy an aircraft without having someone knowledgeable with that specific type of aircraft do what is called a "pre-buy" inspection. This would be similar to a home inspection in the real estate world. It would be better for you to spend money and not buy a particular airplane than to be a remorseful owner. The pre-buy is usually done late in the process when everything else seems to be moving along. It is the final decision point.

So, decide what you want to do with the airplane, narrow the field to types that will fill the bill, get info on that/those specific model(s) and enjoy!

[fearofpavement]

Re: Used aircraft help

[QUOTE= Also is there any web site thats best to look for used planes?
Thanks,
Jim


There are a bunch of websites. Trade-a-Plane and Barnstormers are two of the larger ones but aircraft are sold in a variety of medias. If you have a large city newspaper they often have ads as well. Type a google search for a particular model of plane and see what shows up.

[Pearson]

Re: Used aircraft help

Jim,

After you decide what type of airplane you want to buy, you will want to start looking around for the best value. I would suggest you narrow your search to an area that you can travel to without too much trouble or expense. If you have access to a friend's plane that you can use for travel, your search area can be larger. If you spend time and money traveling to look at faraway "good deals", you will end up spending much more than if you restrict yourself to a more comfortable geographical area. Keep in mind when reading ads that owners describe their planes with their own bias. I once had a guy describe a C-310 as having a new interior, among other things. After traveling from Portland, OR to Albuquerque, NM, I discovered that his version of "new interior" was a piece of carpet laid on the glare shield. I was dumbfounded at this guys nerve. I was so mad I went home with out even opening the logbooks or a cowl. I figured if the guy was able to lie that brazenly about something so obvious, he could have been lying about everything else.

Call or email everyone you know to let them know what kind of plane you are looking for. Check airport bulletin boards in your area, also your local newspaper. You might try offering to pay for the fuel if an owner will fly the plane to you. Be patient! The plane you seek may not be on the market for a while. Also keep in mind, it is better to pass up several "good deals" than to get stung by one bad one.

Every plane has it's good points and bad. Before you buy a plane you don't have experience in, talk to a few people who do, to find the highs and lows of that particular model.

Without question, do not buy a plane without a prebuy inspection by a mechanic familiar with that model. AND don't buy a plane without doing a title search. A title search makes sure there are no leins on the plane and that the person trying to sell it is the actual owner. It cost $35 to $50, and can save you thousands.

Good luck!

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Used aircraft help

I might add that it is best to have the mechanic ( A&P, IA) who will be maintaining the ship for you get in on the act. Either have him do the pre-buy or work with the person that does it.....
If the season is correct down your way a few blue crab and beer at the end of the work day go a long way with me!

[DanBrown]

Re: Used aircraft help

As you indentify an aircraft to look at, there is infomation on the FAA website.
This url has a place to download the list of all US registered aircraft:

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/releasable_aircraft_download/

Then when you identify an airplane that looks ok, you can get the complete set of filed information on a CD (for $10.00) from

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/copies_aircraft_records/

Has scanned images of all the paperwork on a particular airplane.

I have to fly under the LSA rules these days. A careful look at the records on one airplane I almost bought prevented me from getting one that was modified to put the gross weight beyond the LSA limits -- it wasn't noted in the aircraft logs!

I live on the Arnold side of the Severn and would be happy to meet and talk.

[jdoran]

Re: Used aircraft help

I live in Shadyside, and would also be willing to help.

When I bought my Taylorcraft, many of the inspections are common sense. I did it with a mechanic. I remember looking at key points of the plane that were hard to see for corrosion with a mirror, shaking the wings to look for loose or worn fittings, etc. We did find a bad exhaust valve on one cyllinder, but the seller agreed to fix it.

Larry Donaldson at Lee Airport-Chesapeake Aviation would be a great asset if you have a local plane that you want an AP/IA to look over before you buy.

[depfer]

Re: Used aircraft help

Thanks to all for the great advice and suggestions.

Dan Brown - Thanks for the offer. I'm going to try and take you up on your offer as soon as possible.

Jdoran - Thanks, I've been meaning to stop in to the Lee Airport and just look around and ask a few questions.

Forrest Barber - Strange that you would mention Blue Crabs....I got a commercial crabbing license several years ago, and crab in the Severn River every year. I got the commercial license so I could catch as many crabs as I want, and it also allows me to set my trot lines earlier than the recreational crabbers. There is one bad point.......I don't deliver to Ohio.

Thanks Again,
Jim

[Dusty]

Re: Used aircraft help

For whatever it's worth...

There's no such legal entity as a pre-buy inspection. I strongly suggest getting an annual inspection before you fork over any cash. If the seller isn't willing to work with you to accomplish that, assume they're hiding something and walk away.

Most really great airplane deals originate word of mouth. I suggest starting at your local aviation parts store/FBO/mechanic.

What are you looking for?

[depfer]

Re: Used aircraft help

Dusty,
What I'm looking for is exactly what I'm getting in these posts. Advice and guidance from people more knowledgeable than myself. I'm just an "old" student sport pilot that wants to be as prepared as possible when I get to the point where I may want a plane. I'm only just beginning to look around at this point. I'm taking instructions in an Aeronca Champ which I like so far, I only have 2.7hrs in the Champ. I just resumed lessons in late October. I had taken lessons at MASP in Virginia in July (14hrs), but didn't finish. Trying to cram everything into one week just wasn't right for me. I was having a lot of problems with the landings. The plane was the same one that Jim Pellien crashed. I didn't like the plane at all. I was sitting on two cushions and still couldn't see over the nose. The one good landing that I did have was when crabbing. Not because of wind, but to try and see the runway better. I had other problems but thats not important to this post. As far as actual planes, I want to look at the Taylorcraft BC12-D and the Aeronca Champ, although at this point I just want to get as much info as I can, and be prepared knowing all the steps and procedures necessary to get a plane when the time comes.
Thanks, Jim
P.S. Sorry, but I tend to rattle on when I start replying....

[alwaysoar]

Re: Used aircraft help

Jim, Check your private messages for a reply to your thread.

Ed Scott

[DanBrown]

Re: Used aircraft help

One of the best ways to decide what airplane you would like to buy is to rent and take instruction it various models. Unfortunatly, there aren't many choices for the older LSAs available in our area. There are several different Aeronca Champs available within diriving distance, and an Ercoupe at FDK, but no Aeronca Chiefs, Taylorcrafts, Cubs or Luscombs that I know about. The newer LSA's are becoming more available for training or rental, but too pricey for me.

Next best would be to bum rides in various airplanes. Many of us are happy to have company when we do some local flying. Flyins (check the EAA, AOPA and type forums like this one for events) and EAA chaptper meetings or just hanging around fields catering to antique airplanes are resources.

Forrest,
Do you think it useful to create a registry of resources for Taylorcraft instructors, mechanics, rental aircraft (searchable by area) on this site?

[Dusty]

Re: Used aircraft help

Jim - I meant, what sort of airplane! Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking that this group might be able to make specific recommendations if you told us something about what you're looking for, or what you want to do with it, or whatever you know.

I'll strongly second the idea of flying the model you're interested in as much as possible before you buy something. What you read isn't always (ever??) a very good representation of (your) reality when it comes to these old airplanes. Every single airplane type out there has it's devout following. Don't believe everything they tell you!

I was sitting on two cushions and still couldn't see over the nose

Get more cushions! I can see over the nose in my 115HP (=big cowling) Champ with 31" Bushwheels! Several cheap closed-cell foam camping pads were sacrificed for that ability.

You'll find the Taylorcraft (and most every other taildragger) has much worse visibility over the nose than the Champ. Unless you're flying into really tight/rough places, you'll also find that you don't really miss it, once you get used to it.

was having a lot of problems with the landings

I had the same thing. Here's the cure:

Go fly down the runway. Fly as fast as you're comfortable with, about 6" off the runway. If you don't bounce a tire every now and then you're too high.

Once you get used to that, slow down. Same 6 inches or less, just fast enough that your controls work. This is a good time to play with slips - you'll need them to keep the airplane aligned with and in the center of the runway.

Keep trying to fly slower. Don't try to land - don't ever tell yourself that you're going to land - just keep the airplane pointed in the right direction, keep pulling the stick back and coming off the power to get slower and slower and hold your altitude. The rest will happen for you.

[fearofpavement]

Re: Used aircraft help

Almost every student I have ever had felt his/her landings were poor and unacceptable but invariabally it was due to lack of experience. From my opinion and observation most people can't consistantly land a plane safely until they have done in excess of 100 landings. (I know there are some of you out there who soloed after 20 minutes and three touch and goes but I didn't have you as a student...)

Based on the amount of flight time you have, unless your instructors keep refusing to fly with you, pray out loud on every final approach, or get out and kiss the ground at the end of the session, you just need to stick with it and eventually it will happen. A decent instructor should be able to analyze your ability or lack thereof and find a solution. Often just finding out where the pilot is looking during the landing is enough to solve the problem.

If you are doing your primary training in a tailwheel airplane this will do much to make you a better pilot for the long haul. I am in a position of analyzing pilot skills (they all have at least a commercial/intrument) and many of them are unfamiliar with the use and purpose of the pedals on the floor other than the brakes and to steer on the ground)

As I posted earlier in this thread, you have tapped into a wealth of knowledge available on this site and by utilizing it and other resources you will be prepared to select a suitable aircraft for YOU when the time comes.

There are a lot of T-crafts around, I would recommend you get some time in one before you buy something else. I am not saying they are the only good plane, just that you should date more than one girl before marrying...

[depfer]

Re: Used aircraft help

Dusty - Thanks for the recommendations. I'll reply again after my lessons this Friday. I'm also stopping off and looking at a Champ and Taylorcraft after the lessons. My lessons are in a Chief. I can see over the nose very well except during taxiing and just after landing in that. I don't mind that at all. My previous instruction in the Zodiak was much worse. I was already sitting on 2 cushions, and a third made my head hit. I should have tried a cushion behind my back, but I didn't try that. I felt like I was leaning back in a dentist's chair. My instructor didn't own the plane and he didn't like it either. I didn't mention it earlier, but I don't like the low wing either. Some of my concerns (maybe even fears), I'm sure will not be as important once I learn to fly a little better. Right now I think I'm interested in these planes right now: Taylorcraft, Aeronca Champ, Aeronca Chief (ones applicaple for Sports Pilot license).
I've only landed the Chief once (and I think the instructor provided a "little?" help on that). I believe I'm going to enjoy landing the taildraggers more than the Zodiak (nose wheel) though.

Jim