NTSB accident stats

[N74DV]

I spent about an hour tonight going through accidents in Tcrafts from 1980 to present. What I found of interest was the fact that almost every fatal accident about 25 or so, was the result of a stall/spin. About 3 were as a result of pilot incapacitation due to medical problems. I found no other fatalities other than those two reasons.

I saw many many off airport landings that resulted in minor or serious injuries.

So I conclude from this rather elementary fact finding mission that the Tcraft is a robust airplane that can take nearly anything the pilot can throw at it (within the legal limits of course) and not break, but do not stall it down low or else.

I could not find any instance of a major catostrophic airframe failure.... like lift struts, spars, tail feathers, etc.

I read of reports where the aircraft had engine failure and flew into trees, crash landed into the side of a mountain, hit parked cars, and in each of those the pilot/passenger walked away.

It's comforting to know that when flying the Tcraft, so long as you "fly the airplane" in an emergency your chances of survival are almost guaranteed.

[DanBrown]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Very informative -- Thanks. Two comments:

The t-craft stalls very gently and recovers quickly if not abused. In my most recent spin training (in a Blanik glider) my instructor proved that stalls/spins from a coordinated steep turn are very difficult to initiate. However, they are easy to get into from a slow skidding turn -- like trying to rush the turn to final by pushing on the rudder. Perhaps a factor in the NYC Cirrus crash??

We who are coming back to powered flight under the LSA rules owe it to ourselves, our families, other pilots and the public to be brutally honest about our capability to take off or continue every flight safely. We should also find and practice placing the ship in a stable hands/feet off glide.

[jgerard]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I have expeianced a stall twice now durring a slip to landing durring varriable wind conditions. There is not much warning and you have to be ready to put the nose down and add a bit of power. I never let it get away from me or develop into more than about 50' of altitude loss. There is not much warning other that a slight burble and then the controls feel loose and the plane feels like it is dropping straight down. This type of approach stall while slipping happens fast! Much different than a normal stall. After it happened the first time I went back up and did it again at altitude so I could learn to recoginze it and practice recovering. I never did it again (while landing) in my old BC12D. The second time it happened was in my F19 on approach in windy conditions. This plane does not fly as nice, or should I say have the same control feel at slow speeds as the BC12D did (YET!) and I stalled it on approach while slipping. Every time I slip at slow speeds I am thinking about approach stalls. Even though I did not feel this one comming due to the different feel of this aircraft I was prepared and recovered instantly.

It's easy to see how one can become confused and not recognise a stall while on approach.

[mulwyk]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Interesting.

Does anyone know how the T-Craft accident record compares with other light aircraft? Is there a stall/spin problem with the Taylorcraft?

Bob Gustafson

[M Towsley]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Bob,

If you listen to some of the older gentlemen around airports you will hear stories of the base to final stall issue with Taylorcrafts. Allegedly this was a higher accident realm of flight area Taylorcrafts got a reputation for. I do know the first accident aircraft with Liaison Pilot Training during the war was a Taylorcraft L-2. Apparently it was not as forgiving in the low and slow realm while making steep turns as compared to the L-4 Cub or L-3 Aeronca. I believe this may have been due to the less forgiving or faster characteristics of the Taylorcraft wing compared to the flat bottomed ones. I've found no other official comparison statistics between these type of aircraft, however. The military did take the L-2 out of service for awhile due to these type of accidents, if my memory serves me.

[Chet Peek]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Regarding the L-2 being taken out of service, thought dangerous, let me put in my two cents worth. But remember I fly a DC-65 (L-2), so I'm biased.

When they got the program settled down to some specific phases, one exercise was to land short over a barrier. This was duck soup for a Cub, but the L-2 wouldn't do it as well and they continually broke landing gears, etc.
When I wrote the TYLORCRAFT STORY I was much to unkind to the L-2, and wish I could take back the phrase "DOWNRIGHT WICKED".on page 149. The L-2 is not a wicked plane..

One possible reason for the higher death rate in the L-2 might have been simply how and when they were used. We tend to have very high winds in the summer here in Oklahoma. They found the Cubs could not handle this, especially in the afternoons, so it became the practice to use Cubs in the morning when the air was calm, and L-2's in the aftenoon when it was gusty. This could have caused the increase in L-2 accidents.

Because of my age, (86), I have to take a flight review every year. We always do a couple of full power-on stalls. The thing just doesn't want to stall!. It seems to hang there forever, finally mushing down. Easy to keep the wings level if you are quick with the rudder. So if I ever have to put it down dead stick, I'm confident it will keep me safe. I'll just try to hit the softest and least expensive object in sight.

Thanks for listening.

Chet Peek

[Jim Herpst]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Jason I believe you to be a good high time pilot ...you have me more than a bit in question of your statement about slipping on final and having the plane (BC12D or F-19)approaching or actually stalling out and the you mention every time that you correct with putting the nose down.... mm I slip allthe time and have for years in the T craft (and many other planes that do not slip nearly as nice as the T) I always make sure I have NO back pressure on the yoke (or stick) ALWAYS NOSE DOWN. No flames intended here just want to learn if I have not been slipping correctly all these years. but I sure bleed off the alt quickly and very much in control in this un coordinated manuver and never approached a stall..... again no flames to you Jason just wanting to make sure I "GOT IT" (DONT WANT TO LOSE IT!!!)

ps ah HA JUST RE READ AND YOU MENTION THE VARIABLE WIND CONDITION PIECE ...PERHAPS THIS IS WHAT i AM MISSING ...COURSE THEN CHET SAYS THE T WAS USED MORE IN THE TRAINING DAYS IN GUSTY WINDS OK ENOUGH STILL IN QUESTION...

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I know of 2 departure stalls, both killing the pilot on board and destroying the aircraft. One in the 70s included a turn to the left and the one in the eighties a turn to the right. Both were complete stalls at under 200 feet and both were performed by experienced pilots. The pilot from the 1976 crash, in a BC12D, had his instrument and commercial and
the one from 1982(or'84 I can't seem to find the record at the moment) was and ATP. Both accidents were due to failure to maintain airspeed on climb out. I guess the point is, don't be complacent and don't think you know it all. While the T-Craft maybe bullet proof... the pilot never is.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[flyguy]

Re: NTSB accident stats

OK, gonna stick my neck out here, but I think I'm on pretty solid ground. This trick comes from guys who were doing simulated shuttle landings in F104s (not a typing or number error.) I've done it a lot and it works.
If you want to get rid of energy when you are too high the best way to get rid of the maximum energy is to change to a high drag configuration (slip or full flaps) and push over to MAXIMUM SAFE airspeed. After you have dumped the altitude hold the slip or flaps and "level" out and the excess speed will go away almost instantly. The reason this works is that the energy dissipated is the square of the airspeed. Unless you have Godly skills and luck, NEVER slip at LOW airspeeds. With the crossed controls I would say that the odds of rolling over on your back are pretty good.
DC

[mhorowit]

Re: NTSB accident stats

The stall-while-slipping is caused by allowing the nose to come up, right? - Mike

[Jim Hartley]

Re: NTSB accident stats

My Tcraft will resist a stall in a properly executed and maintained slip even near or at the critical angle of attack...it will buffet, relax,buffet relax and on and on even with the yoke at the stop with a high pitch attitude and will really dissipate some altitude in a hurry. A properly executed slip in in my tcraft is stall and spin resistant. There is good rudder and aileron authority to maintain the slip in the tcraft. Try this in some aircraft without good rudder and/or aileron authority in the slip You will not be able to hold a slip and you will end up slowly transitioning to a skid and the inside wing will stall first and you will wind up in a spin. I am well aware that wind shear can ruin a properly executed and maintained slip. Any time you lose lift/airspeed near the critical angle of attack near the ground it is nice to be carrying extra airspeed/lift.

I wanted to add that I am talking about here is full control deflections...full rudder and full aileron...maximum slip.

Jim

[cpirrmann]

Re: NTSB accident stats

When I slip on approach, I always have the nose down and good airspeed. Then simply release the pressures, and she pops right into approach attitude.

[jgerard]

Re: NTSB accident stats

I only experianced the approach stalls with a nose up slip to help slow the plane down trying to create a lot of drag. I don't see many pilots using a nose up slip, who knows it may not be a good idea?

My experiance at altitude with slips sounds like what Jim described. You can be gliding down in a nose up slip and recover from incipent and actual stalls by relaxing back pressure or adding power. My old BC12D had no tendancy to flip over or enter a spin. Just a rapid and precieved near vertical loss of altitude like the bottom fell out! I never took it much farther than that.

[94973]

Re: NTSB accident stats

Tribe: the whole point of slipping is to go down without going fast. I almost always slip 94973 in at 55-60 indicated. It's the sweetest landing airplane in the world.

[Guest]

Re: NTSB accident stats

My Tcraft will resist a stall in a properly executed and maintained slip even near or at the critical angle of attack...it will buffet, relax,buffet relax and on and on even with the yoke at the stop with a high pitch attitude and will really dissipate some altitude in a hurry. A properly executed slip in in my tcraft is stall and spin resistant. There is good rudder and aileron authority to maintain the slip in the tcraft. Try this in some aircraft without good rudder and/or aileron authority in the slip You will not be able to hold a slip and you will end up slowly transitioning to a skid and the inside wing will stall first and you will wind up in a spin. I am well aware that wind shear can ruin a properly executed and maintained slip. Any time you lose lift/airspeed near the critical angle of attack near the ground it is nice to be carrying extra airspeed/lift.

I wanted to add that I am talking about here is full control deflections...full rudder and full aileron...maximum slip.

Jim

Hi Jim ,

My bc12d does pretty much as you describe.

You reminded me a funny story though.

About 20 years ago I was flying with an instructor for my bi-annual and was telling her how the airplane will not slip to a stall but just kind of goes wing high then runs out of aileron (or rudder) authority and then the high wing comes down then authority is regained and nose & wind rise and so on as you describe.

So I showed her what I meant and we held full deflections for many many of those oscillations to show how this went on an on...

Well after a few minutes it did get worse. The oscillations (as I call them) apparently get more pronounced until at the last one the high wing went up and over. We ended up inverted and the baggage sling emptied itself on ceiling. She griped "if your going inverted you need to take averything out the cockpit first!"

I suspect that I witnessed an example of under damped oscillations or it could have been a result of a gust too I guess.

Dave