What were they thinking?

[Winston L.]

Re: What were they thinking?

It is close but you are not vertical in a wing over.

Winston

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: What were they thinking?

hammer-heads go into a full stall. Tail slides follow. Wing-overs are done above stall speed, just a little above stall, under-control, no tail slide, same manuever but 3-5 mph faster. Recovery is also faster with less loss of altitiude. Practice by taking your plane to 2500 AGL and set up along a crossing set of roads. Note speeds and altitiudes in and out of the manuever. Also your displacement to the right or left of the intersection when recovering. This will give you the knowledge to utilize the wing-over, how much distance and altitude you need to perform it, and how much altitude lost performing it.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[VictorBravo]

Re: What were they thinking?

If they were trying to do a wingover, uing the technique of going up to near-stall and then kicking in a bootful of rudder, a high performance airplane like a Cirrus could be in an incipient spin in a quick hurry. That is one of my scenarios, that they spun it unintentionally, and the the building was in the way of their recovery.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: What were they thinking?

Too sharp a turn may have caused an acclerated stall. I'm not suggesting that anyone practice a wing-over in an emergency. I'm suggesting you go out and become proficent on a relaxed calm Saturday when you've got altitude, time, and a proper set-up to do it, mess it up, and do it again. I think it took me 5 or 6 tries to get comfortable. I've done 2 dozen of them in the intervening years and try to do at least 3 every year and certainly every bi-annual. On this matter to each his own. A little aerobatic instruction under your belt is good too. Too many pilots have never seen their plane in a radical manuever and can't compensate at the proper moment. Planes can always do more than their pilots, same is true of the T-Craft... and likely the Cirrus also. So go find out, be safe and be a better pilot.

With regards; ED OBRIEN

[48fordnut]

Re: What were they thinking?

I guess i am the confused one. I have always gone vertical, then just before the plane loses flying speed kick rudder the way you want to go then do the vertical line back down. my mistake.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: What were they thinking?

I'd always thought of a Hammerhead Stall as a STALL. And, a wing-over as a little faster version of the same manuever. It appears there is variation in the terminology. I wouldn't let idiom make you an idiot. So here's a contemporary definition from the internet -- SEE BELOW. Now what I used to call a wing-over is being called a hammerhead turn. My point is practice the manuever and let the dictionary work out the terms. Be forewarned about the description below... you may not have altitude to start with a quarter-loop. SO practice with cruise speed to a radical pitch-up. In a Taylorcraft less than 180HP, I doubt you'll make verticle. With regards; ED OBRIEN

Hammerhead Turn: - It starts with a quarter loop into a vertical climb. When the plane stops climbing, it pivots around its vertical axis (which is now horizontal). The nose moves in a vertical circle from pointing up through the horizon to pointing down. After moving vertically down to pick up speed again, the maneuver is finished with the last quarter of a loop to horizontal flight.

The quarter loop is flown just the first part of a loop. When the plane is vertical, the elevator backpressure is released completely. During the vertical line up, some right aileron and right rudder is needed to maintain the vertical attitude because of the engine torque and p-factor. When the plane has slowed enough, full rudder initiates the turnaround. It is followed by right-forward stick (right aileron and forward elevator) to keep the plane for torquing off. The pivot is stopped with opposite rudder when the nose points straight down. When the pivot is completed, the ailerons are neutralized. Elevator and rudder are used to keep the nose pointing straight down.

This maneuver is sometimes called a hammerhead stall. This is not an accurate name because the plane never stalls. The airspeed may be very slow, close to zero, but since there is now wing loading during the turn-around, there is no stall (at zero G wing loading, a wing does not stall). The plane is flying throughout the maneuver with all the control surfaces effective (although sometimes only marginally so). - top -

[crispy critter]

Re: What were they thinking?

Neah, a hammer head is when you completely stall the inside wing during the turn....but has the same effect if done properly

[48fordnut]

Re: What were they thinking?

thats what I was doing, just not from a partial loop. just a desent.

[crispy critter]

Re: What were they thinking?

I need to add a little info to my prior post. The Hammer Head does not include a tailslide. A hammer head if done properly is a straight up vertical manuver in which at the top the airplane will be at a vertical stop. The aircraft will piviot on a point as if it had an axle threw the center of the of the airplane to pivot on.The low wing will actually be traveling in a reverse direction(not enough so you can see it from the ground),the cabin section at a dead stop and the up facing wing swings over.It is a very tricky manuver to do perfect but is very fun once you figure it out.However it is very easy to tail slide the airplane if you mis-judge it .

[mulwyk]

Re: What were they thinking?

I knew a crop duster in the 60's who had a real fast end-of-the-field turn around. He would start from 3' above the ground, pull straight up to vertical, hammer head turn (that's what he called it), then straight back down to the 3' cross-the-field spray height.

It looked awful dangerous doing that near stall turn over and over at low altitude like that. But he could cover more acres per day than anyone!

A couple years later, I heard he'd been killed spraying a wheat field in Hand county. Maybe he'd misjudged that hammer head just one time?

Bob Gustafson

[VictorBravo]

Re: What were they thinking?

I knew a crop duster in the 60's who had a real fast end-of-the-field turn around. He would start from 3' above the ground, pull straight up to vertical, hammer head turn (that's what he called it), then straight back down to the 3' cross-the-field spray height.

Doing Hammerhead Stalls, with a load of spray sloshing around in a hopper, and having only three feet of room for error on your pullout... does not seem like a real good idea to me.

The hammerhead is a type of stall IMHO, although it is true that since there's no load on the airplane it can't technically be stalled. Anytime you completely stop an airplane in mid-air, it has to be treated like a stall in terms of reality and energy management, even if the textbook says you aren't really stalled.

[alwaysoar]

Re: What were they thinking?

IMHO, you cannot do a hammerhead if you are completely stopped because when you are stopped there is no rudder control and you'll just slop around until the plane falls off in one direction or the other or slides backwards. So there is not really a pivot though if it's done properly it looks like a pivot from the ground, and you feel almost weightless in the seat.

Ed@BTV VT
TF 527

[crispy critter]

Re: What were they thinking?

Ed,I hope I don't offend you but...I'd like to show you how it works.A vido camara works well to prove this point. You reallt need it from three or four angles but it will give you a better idea of how it works. The airplane in reality is only half stalled....the inside wing is while the outside wing is not.As for rudder control,you get it from the prop blast. You leave it at full throttle until the nose breaks over and the ground starts coming into view out the corner of the windshield. If done properly it is a perfect pivot.

[Len Petterson]

Re: What were they thinking?

Low and slow on a big wing I go.
Now I can turn and twist
with a big rudder to contol my list.
In bad weather I stay home
as there, a warm coffe pot, lome.

Len
just my prefferences.

[alwaysoar]

Re: What were they thinking?

Yes, I'd like to see it, and I'm not offended.