What were they thinking?

[Ed O'Brien]

The nasty end to a scenic flight in New York City that killed 2 and injured many today, causes speculation. What were they thinking? I've made the "Grand Tour" down the East River, around the Statue of Liberty, and back up the Hudson many times. They crashed into a building 2 or 3 blocks from the East River... take the river. Smacking into a building is dumb no matter engine trouble or anything else I can think of. At least 3 helicopters that I know of have gone down in either of these rivers... lives have been lost, but they didn't take a chance of heading into higher terrain, meaning downtown Manhattan and trying to put it down in say Central Park.

I'm sorry 2 pilots died. But, this was not good judgment. Likely the instructor had his head down trying to solve the engine issue... of course this is just speculation... and the Yankee pitcher lost track of his position. Put it in the river, everytime! Maybe you'll get cold and wet and maybe you'll drown or die of hypothermia... but you won't take anyone with you.

My reason for writing is not just to denegrate the dead but to make a point to all good pilots. If you gotta go, you gotta go, keep the death toll to a minimum. Don't play god with other peoples lives and don't hit buildings, mountains, or anything else. That never works out, ever! And, I don't care that there was likely panic on-board. Have a plan and make one of those plans not to hit things. Should engine trouble occur get to someplace lower.
Like the river. What were they thinking?
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[shawn coleman]

Re: What were they thinking?

thinking pretty much same thing do anythig but fly into building just cant see it
shawn

[Richard Boyer]

Re: What were they thinking?

My instructor use to say "Fly the plane". Ok, he didn't say it, at the time I believe he was yelling it.........repeatedly.......


The Cirrus, while being a nice plane, is a fairly complex piece of equipment with a LOT to distract in an emergency. My "speculation" is that they were looking at the pretty screens in the plane instead of looking outside of the plane.....at this point, pure speculation.

There is an interview with the Mayor of New York. I was fairly amazed at his aviation knowledge. Usually you hear all kinds of crazy mis-information at these press conferences.

http://www.1010wins.com/pages/7795.php?contentType=4&contentId=102006

[VictorBravo]

Re: What were they thinking?

I spent some time trying to come up with a scenario where someone would hit a building in VFR conditions, and have it NOT be "gross" pilot error.

The only thing that came up was an engine failure at 2500 feet, followed by panic, followed by a stall/spin, and a partial recovery from the spin at 800 feet with the building in the way.

But the Yahoo news article also said "hazy, cloudy day", so there is another possibility...

Engine failure above a broken cloud deck, pilot descends under control through the cloud deck, but breaks out under the deck facing the building with not enough room to turn away.

OR, a combination of both of these scenarios.

Also, a recent interview with the pilot mentioned how cool he thought the ballistic chute was. Perhaps he was fooling around with that option instead of flying the plane.

Aside from those possibilities, there is nothing obvious to me that would put that airplane into the side of a building that DIDN'T involve some really bad judgement in the left seat.

[crispy critter]

Re: What were they thinking?

Guys...it's just another tragity....we can say a million different things that should have been done or that we would have done....we were here and they were there.....hind sight is 20/20 .We need to use this as a learning experience and try not to ever get ourselves into this situation. If you really want to talk about pilot error then just look back to Flight 5191,the Red Eye out Lexington,Ky about a month or so ago....now that was dumb!

[whake]

Re: What were they thinking?

How about a 180 degree turn and not enough room for the turn...Cirrus has lost a disproporionate number of planes relative to sales. It is a fine airplane, but complicated, fast and very expensive. The latter dictates its customers, who are normally busy people who have a lot of self confidence and are not well trained.

[Vasey fan]

Re: What were they thinking?

How about a 180 degree turn and not enough room for the turn...Cirrus has lost a disproporionate number of planes relative to sales. It is a fine airplane, but complicated, fast and very expensive. The latter dictates its customers, who are normally busy people who have a lot of self confidence and are not well trained.

That's pretty much my take on all the Cirrus wrecks these days. I think it probably applies to the increase in Warbird crashes over the last decade or so as well.

[alwaysoar]

Re: What were they thinking?

It's the JFK jr. scenario: wealthy, successful, confident young guy buys a cool plane with exciting performance that got him into trouble faster than his experience level could handle. My guess the instructor was a beginner as well.

These guys won't buy stodgy 172's or 182's that are far more forgiving and build experience before they get into complex airplanes.

Ed@BTV VT
TF 527

[high time cub]

Re: What were they thinking?

There is an interview with the Mayor of New York. I was fairly amazed at his aviation knowledge. Usually you hear all kinds of crazy mis-information at these press conferences.

Mike Bloomberg is a pilot.

[48fordnut]

Re: What were they thinking?

The pic I saw was on the side away from the water ,like he was headed to the water,or open area. will never know because we weren't there. Why was his wallet on the ground?

[VictorBravo]

Re: What were they thinking?

I'm usually the last guy to agree with any new or more restrictive regulations... however after the Kennedy crash it was apparent to me that they should consider a new FAR that dictates a minimum amount of PIC hours must pass before someone can fly a complex or hi-perf. aircraft. Also, the "currency" requirements should be different for different airplane categories.

John Kennedy had previously owned a 182, in which he might have had a much better chance of survival even if all the same mistakes were made.

I can hear some of you old-timers thinking "yeah, but the P-51 combat pilots in WW2 didn't have many hours before they soloed the Mustang..." which is true, however the pilots were on an intense flight training regimen and their skills were kept in a high state of tune.

NONE of those kids flying B-17's or P-38's were also businessmen, raising a family, pro ball players, or trial lawyers 5 days a week while they were flying combat or training. THAT is the ifference IMHO why 20 year old high school educated kids could fly a B-17 with 500 hours TT and a busy neurosurgeon with 1000 TT might still be unsafe in his V-tail flying a few hours every other month.

[hangarb7]

Re: What were they thinking?

My two cents on the Cirrus is that the ballistic chute actually makes you bolder than you would be otherwise.

I like having a big wing and making the flair at a touch above parachute speeds.

On another note, we just lost a long time pilot (he owned the hangar next to mine) and his instructor (she was a terrific instructor and pilot) here at Rostraver FWQ in Western PA just three days ago while they were on a biennial. Witnesses said they roll flipped and immediately dove into the side of hill.

I'm kinda chicken to go flying again. Gotta work up my nerve. Makes for a real empty feeling.

Jack D.
N44057

[Richard Boyer]

Re: What were they thinking?

What kind of plane were they flying?

Why do you think they "roll flipped"? That kind of sounds like a really sharp break after stalling the plane.

Definitely sucks.

Go fly!

[hangarb7]

Re: What were they thinking?

They were flying in '67 Mooney that seemed to be in pretty good shape.

The son of the pilot sent around an e-mail saying that he thought it had to be catastrophic mechanical failure, but my hangar partner surmised that it could have been a heart attack where the female instructor couldn't pull out of the unusual attitude and the pilot was slumped over the controls or shoving in full rudder...

It probably was not stall practice as they were quite low although maybe there was an engine problem and they were too low when the stall/spin happened. Witnesses say it went overhead (no comments about it seemed to be in trouble or anything) and it rolled inverted and dove into the hillside.

I'm still shook about how quick this can happen and how you may not be in control of a situation.

Feel whimpy today...

Jack D.

[48fordnut]

Re: What were they thinking?

that accident sounds like an accelerated stall. .