News from the Factory III

[Forrest Barber]

Re: News from the Factory III

The leadership is in place. Univair & Wag-Aero (who bought out Safe-Air) are producing genuine PMA'd Taylorcraft Parts. They are moving very cautiously since there is a Type Certificate and " factory" in place to build parts and support the Type Certificate. However you are finding out that the right to produce parts is not automatic , there has to be many things in place; APIS ( Approved Parts Inspection System) for one. OR inside the factory they can use the PMA system. None of this seemed to be set up.
I have printed up the information that I have sent to all entities and posted it twice on this forumn. THEY tell me that the prices will be high and a lot of owners do not want to pay, instead they try to "fabricate" or "repair" the item.... I have been selling a lot parts here recently, they are from a collection over the years of "genuine" Taylorcraft Parts...
Lets see what happens down in Brownsville. The drawings, drawing list, and fixtures are the important part. the contact person is Bill Reed at Wag-Aero , Univair ? somebody refresh me on who is the person there?

[Jim Herpst]

Re: News from the Factory III

If I were a very highly skilled Taylorcraft test/aerobatic pilot and Foundation administrator, one of the first things on my agenda would be to assemble a list of potential landing gear fabricators, cowling hammerers, strut welders, wing tank solderers, etc. who are known to have the talent to assist Taylorcraft owners in producing LEGAL replacement parts.

While we're all having fun playing verbal chess about the latest PT Barnum Taylorcraft factory soap opera, airplanes would be getting put back in the air, more Taylorcrafts would be flying again, and we would become a more independent group of owner/enthusiasts.[/QUOTE]

Bill I am with you. Its all right there. WE just need some real leadership on this issue. In the meantime back to the Carlson Baby Ace.......

[M Towsley]

Re: News from the Factory III

Ed,

I should have added that they knew Forrest as well, and apparently he had tried the same. I would hope he had a little more influence. Forrest would have to comment on this as it is second-hand info. And, I would like to see you get 50 interested Taylorcraft people together for the one common cause. I have no clue where you are getting 500, unless you are the pied-piper of Taylorcraft owners. Please don't banter about odd numbers you cannot back up. There are at least six Taylorcraft owners in my area alone that I can assure you feel the same way. This is not counting the Luscombe owners, etc. who have been burned by cheaply made parts from Univair, just ask them about exhaust muffs for one example. If Univair thought it was possible to make a buck years before Taylorcraft 2000, or whatever Harry called it, they would have done it. Being the bastard step-children of aircraft does not help our cause. I visit other websites and observe how cohesive these owners groups are. I don't see that here. I see a small core group of die-hard Taylorcrafters asking, and an even smaller group anwering questions. For some unknown reason I think getting 500 people together as a cohesive unit is impossible. (Unless your a politician and lie to them). I too believe it doesn't hurt to ask, I did. At least I took the initiative but all it got me was........nothing. You have my vote, and apparently you have a benefit in living close by. Let Univair know we want good quality parts at semi-reasonable prices. And, let them know they may want to advertise. I asked for the Taylorcraft list of parts, and all I received was a new catalog which, by the way, is one of the most unwieldy, difficult to use catalogs in the business. Now you are just 499 unified Taylorcraft owners away..............

[Ragwing nut]

Re: News from the Factory III

The cost to receive a PMA for a part is astronomical and don't expect it to happen overnight, Unless you as a company that already has other PMA's in place, a new PMA would take a year minimum and MANY thousands of dollars. There is a reason why Univair's parts are not cheap. Short production runs and an ever increasing liabilty insurance bill. I will always rather gripe about the cost of a part from Univair than the quality of some of the crap from Wag-Aero. Univair's quality is never an issue.

Mike

[fearofpavement]

Re: News from the Factory III

This question is for someone (perhaps Forrest) that has some knowledge of the PMA system. If the group here is primarily interested in a parts supply chain (and that seems to be the focus) Is there any benefit in owning the type certificate(s) for the T-crafts? ie, does the ownership of the type certificates make it easier to get approval to manufacture parts? Or is it primarily beneficial in the manufacture of new aircraft? If the PMA system allows the fabrication of parts fairly readily without type certificate support then perhaps someone would be willing to take on the task. The trick is to find support for all aspects of the aircraft and not just the most common or profitable items. With all the light sport stuff in the works, it seems that a well proven design would have more appeal than it apparently does.

Second part of the question is what do antique aircraft type certificates typically sell for when they go on the market. There should be some kind of paperwork trail just for T-craft alone. I assume most type certificates that ever were are owned by someone or are some just abandoned? ie Funk, Interstate, Ryan, etc.

[VictorBravo]

Re: News from the Factory III

Mike, if it were me in that position I would call it
"a used, serviceable Taylorcraft part was located and inspected..."

As for Univair, I know an L-2 owner who oversaw four "owner produced" wing struts there and is happy with what he got. I don't have much experience buying anything from Univair myself.

But my rant about "owner produced parts" does not apply to Univair, because making parts for 500 Taylorcraft owners would surely not qualify. That would fall squarely in the existing PMA field, which Univair is very familiar with.

My idea was a stop-gap measure that we could use during the time everyone is waiting for Univair (or Wag-Aero, or whoever) to start making PMA off-the-shelf replacement parts.

Here is another way to look at it...

1. A Taylorcraft owner gets a list from the Foundation (or on this forum) of people or shops who do good work and are willing to make parts to owner specifications.

2. The owner calls up the shop and says "Are you interested in making a left hand landing gear for my T-craft?"

3. The shop says "Why yes, I'd be interested. As a matter of fact, I have made a left landing gear for a Taylorcraft owner in the past and he is happy with it. Perhaps you'd like to see the specifications that he ordered and controlled... what is your e-mail address and I will send you a copy of what his order looked like..."

4. The owner receives the e-mail and compares it with what he was about to send the shop for an owner produced part order. The owner generates his own set of owner produced part specifications that may or may not incorporate features that the previous customer wanted on his landing gear.

5. The owner sends the shop an order to build (or repair) an owner produced part to XYZ specifications, along with a statement that the owner is the controlling entity, and that the owner takes full responsibility for the installation and use of the part, releasing the shop from any and all liabilities.

6. The owner and the shop negotiate the price and finalize the deal.

After all that, the owner gets a good part, the FAA has no reason to bother the shop that made parts under the owner's control, and Taylorcraft Aviation Corporation / Wag aero / Univair were sitting on the porch having a beer discussing how there wasn't a market for Taylorcraft parts!

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: News from the Factory III

Marty;
You are one person. (This is an assumption on my part. If you're two people please accept my double apology.) If we walked in representing say 500 Taylorcraft Owners? We might be taken more seriously. There's no need to cover past history except as instruction for the future. I'm sorry you were disappointed. Maybe I will be too in this endeavor. But, no more disappointed than the factory thing. I've been there twice urging them onward and upward and... And, perhaps the factory is why Univair balked -- because they weren't sure if the factory got on thier feet that the factory might ruin their market. That seems unlikely now. I guessing on all this... but it sounds reasonable.

A consumer co-op, consumer union affect prices, quality, etc. AOPA, AARP, EAA, etc. all have consumer co-ops which are tied to their larger organizations. Hotel Rooms at 20 percent off for AARP members isn't bad. Not that I'm saying this can be a certainty in this case but you understand what I mean.

Complaining about this and that is alright but money talks and you-know-what-walks... 500 dedicated Taylorcraft Organization members aren't the AOPA or EAA but they're
worth talking to... I'm an idiot about FAA certification and the factory issues... but I'm pretty good at seeing a market that would reward a hero. It can't hurt to talk.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[M Towsley]

Re: News from the Factory III

Ed & Dan,

Wonderful idea, I broached this subject with them at the end of last year. And as you can see, there is a plethora of Taylorcraft parts just pouring out the door. (Sarcasm to be noted here). Besides expensive, the parts I have seen are cheaply made. I don't mind expensive and well made, but expensive and cheaply made don't mix well with me, or others. If they are going to take the time to make parts, do them right. The word of mouth advertising they are getting around my aircraft community is one that would not make me very happy if I were the owners. You may want to let them know that. I am also a firm believer in selling say two or three exhaust muffs for say three hundred dollars, rather than one at six or seven hundred dollars. I never understood that line of thinking. (Not talking about liability costs, etc.) If you ever notice when they advertise they always advertise piper, luscombe, ercoupe, NEVER Taylorcraft parts. I suggested they might want to do that and approach all of us out there with a need for parts. Apparently fell on deaf ears.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: News from the Factory III

yes, cheap parts that don't exist v. expensive parts that do exist is the actual issue. I'm not saying that Univair is the be-all-end-all. What I'm suggesting is that as a concentrated group of dedicated owners that have a stake in the viability of a parts chain. That we should band together in an orderly fashion. Pool our power as stake-holders and seek to engage Wag-Aero, Spruce, Wicks, and Univair (throw in any other name you like) and represent not the parts company, not the airframe, not the FAA, not the PMAs but the consumers. A Consumers Co-op if you will. This way we can entice anyone of the names above to get the certified parts from scraps of old or new Taylorcraft incarnations, the machining tools, the raw stock, etc, etc.
And, create our much needed an more complete parts supplier. Either we defend our planes and the crying need for parts, allow a company to make money, or abandon the airframe to history.

Negotiations with companies that are always looking for open markets is the easiest selling on the planet. It is called marketing. Opportunity meets want... and is captured by supply -- in other words a supply chain.
But, there must be rewards for all concerned parties or
it will not be self sustaining.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Winston L.]

Re: News from the Factory III

The only problem I ever had with Univair is their high prices. Some parts I would rather repair or fabricate before I would pay those prices.

Winston.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: News from the Factory III

I think Steve Dyers and his Univair team run a great operation. How many of us need parts? What kind of parts
can be bought, FAA certified, and sold for what price? These are question that I'd leave to a professional, like Steve, or Forrest, or Wag-Aero, etc. While we're thinking it over let me give you the contact information for Univair:

http://univairparts.com/shopping_291765/contact_us.php

Mr. Dyers is out of town until next week but after that some follow-up emails, phone calls, assurance of support from the Taylorcraft.Org boys and girls, might get this rolling.

If one looks at all that has been said on this subject over the past 3 weeks... inside the consternation and gripes there is actually a business plan.

With the right expertise, judgement, and connections -- someone will make money on this. And, the company that does -- is good for the Taylorcraft community.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[NY86]

Re: News from the Factory III

Hey All,

More craziness as reported by the Brownsville Herald:

I still think you have too much time on your hands...

So let me get this straight. They are paying incentives to Taylorcraft to promote "job creation and development projects." While on the other hand they are hoping "the eviction process 'doesn’t take long.'"


Is it just me, or do others feel the incentives should stop when the eviction proceedings start?


WhatamImissing?

[dmcneil]

Re: News from the Factory III

Hey All,

More craziness as reported by the Brownsville Herald:

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/ts_comments.php?id=72973_0_10_0_C

Regarding Univair... I've found them to be very responsive to serious requests for parts from owners and/or type clubs. When replacement Luscombe heat shrouds were no longer available, requests from owners lead them to make that part. The Dyers are airplane people of the best kind and have been making replacement parts for small airplanes of all varieties for 60 years. They know what they are doing and they'll be there tomorrow. They already make a good number of Taylorcraft parts. Talk to them.

Dan

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: News from the Factory III

Does this make sense? Somebody tell me what to say on the subject... or somebody get on the phone with me when I go to see "Univair"... which is 20 minutes from my house. Or, all of us write Univair at their website. Or all of us get on our Harleys and drive around the front door of Univair -- no that one is too hostile. OK simply put. I know nothing about this kind of stuff. But, I'm a pretty good salesman and presentation guy. If the Taylorcraft Organization wants Univair -- I can't believe Univair wouldn't want us. That said, I'm as naive as a duck at a dinner party on this stuff. With regards; ED OBRIEN

[mhorowit]

Re: News from the Factory III

Bill - weave in the the discussion between myself and Winston concerning how a part gets on my aircraft. I asked that if I said I "got this part off E-Bay" or "I think it fell off a turnip truck",if your A&P determines it's airworthy, it goes on the a/c. Certainly by-passes the 51% rule - Mike