Rocky Mountain Crossings

[Ed O'Brien]

As you all know I've warned before about hot days, high altitudes, Colorado mountains, and little planes. This past weekend, it got 2 men, local and knowledgable, flying a 150 HP Citabria over a mountain pass that we all fly. Rollins Pass is about 11,600ft. to cross, as I remember. These gentlemen missed that number by about 1500ft. God Bless'em. See link. http://www.9news.com
Click on aircraft crash story. Good Luck and with regards;
Ed O'Brien

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

As you know I've spoken often about little planes and turbulence and downdraft in the Colorado Rockies. This article is a follow-up to my earlier posting on the subject.
With regards; ED OBRIEN
BOULDER (AP) - Two people killed in a single-engine plane crash in the mountains near Winter Park were remembered Monday as skilled pilots by friends and co-workers.

Heather J. McRoberts, 19, the daughter of a Continental Airlines pilot, and David Para, 30, died when their Citabria 7KCAB went down near Rollins Pass Sunday while flying from Kremmling to Boulder, where they worked at Mile High Gliding.

"They were the two best pilots we ever had," manager John Pafford said. "This is an extreme shock."

Pafford said that pilots need to watch for downdrafts while flying in the mountains but he said the scene of the crash near Skyscraper Reservoir is not more dangerous than other areas. There have been several crashes in the area.

McRoberts got her glider license at 14, just as her mother and father had done, her grandmother Ann McRoberts said. She dreamed of becoming a missionary pilot, an astronaut or a commercial pilot, she said.

"Her father said he's lost his favorite flying pal," Ann McRoberts said.

[crispy critter]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

That's so sad to hear Ed. I've made several trips threw the Rockies and only had a one close encounter,and it was of my own poor judgment...a mistake I will never make again. Summer time flying in the Rockies (IMHO) is more dangerous then in then winter time because of the density alt. Be carefull out there guys.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Two qualified sailplane pilots, perhaps commercial sailplane pilots, in a maneuverable and capable airplane like a Citabria... this makes me curious as to what would cause that tragedy. If it were two students in an over-gross Cessna 150, there would be less of a question. If anyone finds out more about this accident and how it happened, please post it.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

I don't have a clue what these folks did, but I think I know what they faced. 150HP Champs are plenty big everywhere but up here. I've done the same trip as this fated crew in a
7GCBC a couple of times and found it close in winter and too close in Summer. In fact, onetime and on the same route, I turned around and went the long way round through lower territory.

One thing to remember is practice wing-overs. A lousy choice but sometime the only one left. If coming up to a mountain and losing altitude... Pitch up nose until near stall, kick rudder hard over, point nose down, escape in opposite direction and downhill territory. Work it out in smooth air with altitude, lined up on a road. Practice it a couple of times and see how much time and how many feet
you lose. Try to get it to half the time and altitude loss through practice and you've got an emergency tool that can be a life saver.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[VictorBravo]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Wow, Ed, you're right on the money. I have always had it in the back of my head to use a Hammerhead Stall to get out of a box canyon if I got in too deep. You're the only other person I've heard suggest that and I agree 100%.

A year or two ago we had a tragedy here in California where half of a formation of 4 or 5 airplanes (Comanches and Bonanzas) was lost in a canyon they thought they couldn't get out of. I have always wondered whether a hammerhead or wingover maneuver would have gotten them out.

There would be a critical moment where you'd have to make the decisiion to stop trying to climb over the ridge and dive towaard the bottom of the canyon to start the maneuver. Knowing when that point is approaching seems to be the big key to surviving this. IMHO.

Any instructors listening in here, please teach this maneuver to your students. You can beat them over the head with "don't be in that situation in the first place" all you want, but for Pete's sake give them the tool to get out of it after they didn't take the first (best) advice.

BTW, the Taylorcraft does a gentle and majestic Hammerhead stall. If memory serves, you could start from level flight about 200 feet above target altitude, pull it vertical, kick the rudder, and pull out at target altitude with a little practice. High time T-craft pilots and high-horsepower airplanes can likely do even better.

[Vasey fan]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Bill, the only problem with your hammerhead method is that the vast majority of Part 91 drivers out there are uncomfortable exceeding a 15 degree bank, much less an aerobatic manuver. Just about any CFI doing biennials will probably back me up on that. We could probably cure a lot of that by putting spin training back in the curriculum.

As an aside, in the C-140, I can usually execute a hammerhead from cruise with little or no altitude loss, but I've always been fond of the manuver anyway. As far as crossing ridges, there's always a great temptation to cross at a perpendicular angle to minimize your crossing time. I suspect these two had probably crossed that route a few times before & gotten complacent.

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

My suggestion is a wing over, not a hammerhead. Practice it. Don't let it stall. Don't let it tail slide. Keep it in your bag of tricks for a bad day. Sighting along a road will give you the information you need. For me it's a quarter mile forward, 250-350 feet altitude, and maybe 50 yards width. You can't turn around when it get's that close.

I'm figuring that I'll be a little sloppy given fear, so plan on doing it earlier, 'cause there ain't no later, only here-after.
With regards;
Ed O'Brien

[M Towsley]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

I know you guys out west have some beautiful scenery, and I would love to live there, but rarely does a corn or beanfield come up to smite thee unless one is careless. Those mountains are beautiful, but I know my limitations and decided to pay an experienced pilot to bring the L-2 back to good ol' flat Illinois. He is currently in Rawlins Wyoming. Can't wait...........

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Great Marty! I'm glad to hear that your baby is on the way. Now that he's in Rawlins, Wy. he's home free. All the mountains are behind him with just a hump between Laramie and Cheyenne, Wy. After that you can roll the thing on it's wheels all the way to your front door.

Don't be afraid of mountain flying. Its like flying itself. Know what your doing and everything else works out fine.

All the best;
Ed O'Brien

[Sloanlow]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Out in West Texas, we are at about 5000 to 8000 feet. On a high density altitude days, I have done some pretty serius "cactus cruising" looking to get off that hot desert floor by finding an up draft (golf course).

Here, it is very noticable that the bottom drops out on approach, because the desert floor is very hot while about 200 to 300 feet above, it is much cooler. one second flying the next fallling,

In this accident that was described it could be that they were climbing into the wind with marginal but positive results, then got close to the ground where the hot air just zapped that air foil and horse power. another thing is you must always know your best rate and best angle and when to use them and you must BELIEVE.

If you find yourself not climbing maybe you need to look at your angle of attack, you might be slow flying.

2 cents

[crispy critter]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Bill, the only problem with your hammerhead method is that the vast majority of Part 91 drivers out there are uncomfortable exceeding a 15 degree bank, much less an aerobatic manuver. Just about any CFI doing biennials will probably back me up on that. We could probably cure a lot of that by putting spin training back in the curriculum.

As an aside, in the C-140, I can usually execute a hammerhead from cruise with little or no altitude loss, but I've always been fond of the manuver anyway. As far as crossing ridges, there's always a great temptation to cross at a perpendicular angle to minimize your crossing time. I suspect these two had probably crossed that route a few times before & gotten complacent.

I must agree with Ed again. You can still turn almost as close with a good wingover as you can in a hammerhead without the risk of loosing altitude and you are always in controlled flight. I love doing hammerheads and they are very fun but can also bite you if not done right. In an emergency situation you don't need the extra pressure of doing it perfect,just safe. As for the 91 rule...anything that saves your ass is obviously exempt from the rule book! "Teach it and they may live".

[Len Petterson]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Mountain flyng in a 65 hp T-craft?
Is it recomended to fly regulary in and out of mountain airports with low powered aircraft, my personal idea is it is not.
If I install a O 200 or a Lyncoming O 235 in my BC12d. Would I have mountian cabable plane than?
I am considering moving to Sparwood in south east corner of BC.Sparwood airport is at 3800 ft ASL, paved, 4000 FT Long. Peeks to 6000 is surrounding the airport. It was long time ago I did hammer heads but I think I go and a few agin, it was fun 20 years ago. AT 5000 FT OR SO!

Len Petterson.

[jgerard]

Re: Rocky Mountain Crossings

Know your plane and your abilities - Set limits - DONT BREAK THEM! You can read all you want about mountain flying to acquire most of the knowledge you'll need but until you actually spend some time flying in the mountains getting the SHIT beat out of you from the wind while trying to read a sectional so you know which valley to turn down to get through the pass and find the next mountain strip its all just knowledge. You will need to be proficient with your flying skills to safely operate in the mountains. SLOW FLIGHT is where people get into trouble in the mountains. You will never hear any mountain flying instructor suggest a hammer head turn. I am not saying it cant be done, just that its not recommended and is kinda frowned upon. Aerobatics require a horizon for reference, When flying IN the mountains you have no horizon. Turns with more than 45deg bank angle are not recommended because of the chance for slight disorientation due to the lack of a horizon for a reference. A Tcraft will make a nice tight 180deg turn at 60 mph. A safe mountain pilot flys down the side of the valley not the center and if you were stupid enough to actually fly you plane far enough into a valley that you can't safely climb over the ridge, or make a normal turnaround then you just busted 2 of your "limits" that you should have made before even starting this flight. 1) know your plane-how much room is required to safely make a 180 turn 2) know your terrain-never fly blindly up an unfamiliar valley. Always have an out! if the walls are closing in turn back and climb up above the ridge to get a visual on the end of the valley. If the weather wont let you get above the ridge top then go land somewhere and wait. The best thing to do when going into the mountains is to talk to a local pilot that really knows the terrain and weather patterns for the area you plan on flying in. Practicing slow and tight patterns at your airport is great, but remember that in the mountains you will have a rock wall or giant trees 100' off your wing on approach. It takes time to become comfortable flying that close to objects for most pilots. A lot of mountain strips don't use a normal pattern because of terrain and you cant see the runway until your just about to hit it. Well its not that bad all the time, but some places have a really blind approach. Get some instruction, Set limits, and fly safe. I really miss mountian flying (even just seeing the mountains) since I moved to Texas, to flippin flat out here for me. I will finally get a chance to head back into the Cascades and Rockies this month. I plan on flying back home to Seattle and then down to Johnson Creek ID for a little R&R with some good friends.