Impression on VG's

[Yellow Duck]

Len Pattersen asked me if I though the VG's were good or worth it now that I have had them for a while. Here is my answer to him and anyone considering VG's:

Len, I think it is pretty much a double edge sword. ie: you stall slower, so you must make your approaches slower or you will float down the runway. May have even been part of the problem in the ground loop. The wind was blowing pretty good 20 K plus. So with only some airspeed and the wind the Duck stayed airborne, finally settling where it did. Once it weather vaned into the wind and the nose and wing were up, I had no control. Only a pasenger alone for the ride.

But with the VG's, you certainly get a little more climb performance, and you most certainly stall slower. With the slower approach the attitidude is very nose high and difficult to see your landing spot. Especially at my home, comming in over the trees. So it is pick your spot, hold the nose up to slow down and wait. To make the shortest landing possible, I use 45 mph on short final. There is not a lot of flare left, but it will land at below 35 mph. Which I guess is good.

Would I do it again, don't know. But don't believe I would.

[QUOTE=Len Petterson]What is your impression of V-G's, now after you have flown them for a time?

[Len Petterson]

Re: Impression on VG's

After flying for a day in gusty wind and trying approches at 70 Mph to keep up with the crosswinds and a stall speed of 42 Mph IAS. Lower stall speed, No I dont want what! = less crosswind control.20 % of 42 = 8 Mph at 90 degre to direction of travel. It was to slow today
I did drift of the runway and crabbed out on two go arounds today.
15 Mph wind with gusts and changing wind direction in a unpredictable way.
Power ON and go around and try agin.
slower stall speed would maybe be more truble.
More lift is good on a float plane, for shorter take off run.
Some time I wish I have spoilers.
Thanks Len

[Dusty]

Re: Impression on VG's

I don't get it. Really. If you stall at 90 or at 40, you've gotta go through them all to get stopped. Plunk it in at 35, wheel land it at 70, you still gotta get stopped. How could a higher stall speed make the airplane any more controllable? I know that a lower stall speed gives you more options - you should be able to land across most runways if you get pointed into that 20MPH headwind. What am I missing?

[Yellow Duck]

Re: Impression on VG's

Damn Dusty, I had written a desertation on "Stall" and "relative wind in relation to the wing". Wheel landing vs Full stalls. Air speed vs ground speed. Sounded real good. I ended up erasing it by accident. Also my inability to get control of the aircraft once the wind had picked the aircraft up and turned us 90 deg. But I'll go back there later. For now, I just screwed up by not getting control soon enough. Nothing to do with stall speeds or wheel landings

[Dusty]

Re: Impression on VG's

YD: That's not aimed at you, or anything of the sort. It's just in response to the general feeling I get from this post: faster=safer.

I've heard the same argument 1000 times, and never understood it - wheel land (=land faster) in a crosswind. I'd personally MUCH rather land it as slow as possible (and, I most certainly do not constrain myself to landing down the middle of [or anywhere in the vicinity of!] the runway). Wheel landings in strong winds scare me - I'm never quite sure how to get that tail back down. I want my (steerable) tailwheel down there doing some steering while the rest of me is mostly still flying.

So, in general, why does faster make you, or give you the perception of being, safer?

And, just to say it, this is not meant as anything but a low-time pilot finding an opportunity to ask a question.

[Dano"T"]

Re: Impression on VG's

I certainly agree with Dusty that the slower stall speed would be the most desirable effect of the VG's.....but on the subject of wheel landings I think that it is the safest, if not occationally the only way to land a T-Craft in high crosswinds or very gusty days. I understand that it is a little hairy in those situations with the higher speed and tail up....but I believe you need the higher speed and extra control over the control surfaces to keep it on the runway and you definatley need it on a 1 wheel crosswind landing...the critical (and scariest) part is when airspeed bleeds off and the tail is just settling to the surface....that seems to be the point at which a big gust, or complacency can cause an incident or accident to occur. We've all been there doing the rudder dance in high winds and when we finally get to the tie down or hangar we wipe off our palms and only then do we settle down. This is most critical for those who operate on asphalt....grass is much more forgiving of all of this. This is just my opinion and I'm sure there are several on this site who are far more knowledgable than me....I do have a couple thousand hours in Taildraggers and I was just offering my take on it...I'm quite sure that I could be schooled by some of the many accomplished pilots that frequent this site...and I welcome your comments. I think as a ski plane and Floatplane pilot I would benefit somewhat from the addition of VG's...I'd just like to try em before I buy em.

[Dano"T"]

Re: Impression on VG's

This post got me thinking and I did some research just for the heck of it. THIS site shows that this subject is refered to as "The Great Debate" Lots of opinions....what?? Pilot's don't have opinions.....Do We???

[Dusty]

Re: Impression on VG's

If the crosswind is THAT strong, I've found very few places where I can't just land (partially) into the wind.

No disagreement that extra speed helps - greatly - in finding the runway. My question is, what happens then? How do you get that tail down, and why not just land with it down in the first place? I've never had the T-cart in anything very nasty, but I have landed the Champ in some pretty windy conditions. I land on one main and the tailwheel, and its always worked out fine. I'll be the first to admit I'm MUCH more comfortable with full stall landings than wheel, so maybe (probably) I have a slanted view on the "proper" technique. Gusty winds are much trickier, but a quick throttle (and the occasional bounce!) have worked for me - so far.

As a semi-side note, I don't understand how increasing stall speed could help with anything - with the same weight airplane, you still have an "almost flying" speed, whether that's 30 or 60, where most of your directional control comes from the things on the ground (eg, tailwheel and brakes) and not the things in the air (eg, rudder).

[Dano"T"]

Re: Impression on VG's

Dusty,

Getting the tail back down while still maintaining control is..I'll agree...Hairy at best, often full deflection of rudders etc. I landed in January in winds 27 gusting to 34 and the only way I felt I could maintain control is with a wheel landing...but even then my GS was pretty slow at touchdown. I always feel that split few seconds when the tail settles to the ground is the most dangerous point so I see exactly what you mean.

[jgerard]

Re: Impression on VG's

To avoid groundlooping avoid any sideways drift before touchdown.

If the plane is lined up with the runway and HELD in a 3 point attidude with enough crosswind to cause it to drift sideways through the flare and to touchdown while still maintaining runway heading you are a whole heck of a lot more likley come close to a ground loop.

Some places I go require landing with a quartering tail wind. I allways wheel land the plane and when it feels right I bring the tail down with elevator instead of waiting for it to fall down by its self. I hold the yoke back all the way and get on the brakes to slow the plane down.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Impression on VG's

There are far greater experts and high timers here than me...but... IMHO one of the benefits of wheel landing in a X wind is that it gives YOU control over the angle of attack. Meaning that if you can push forward on the yoke to keep the tail up, the cross wind cannot get "under" a wing as easily. You take the assymetrical lift out of the equation, reducing a 3 dimensional problem down to a 2 dimensional problem. I suspect that the mechanics of a groundloop are much more complex and much harder to stop if you have one wheel off the ground, wings not level, etc etc. to the fun. The advantage of the stabilizing force of the tailwheel may be offset by the de-stabilizing force of the tilted wings trying to turn the airplane into the wind in the case of a gust "getting under" the wing.

[Len Petterson]

Re: Impression on VG's

Here in Canada we have somthing called crosswind limetation in form of a Kosh chart, calculating on the angel of the wind to the runway.It gives you the max windspeed at a given angel. It is calculated at 20% of stall speed for a 90 deg crosswind.
My beloved/some time hated tail twisting ---- Taylorcraft stalls at 42 mph IAS 20% is 8.5 mph.
If stall goes down to 35 I have 7 Mph max crosswind .
Now take old low time pilot like me 200 hr TT and not being good at wheel landings, Do I want VG's ? NO!
If I was on floats? Yes
Does the chart hold true? Does for me! My limet is lower than the chart!
Just my circomstances.
Would I trade my in Taylorcraft(;f for a slow and expensive Cub? No(;f
Len

[Dusty]

Re: Impression on VG's

Len - Your chart is broken. The Champ stalls just under 40 and runs out of rudder with a bit more than 20MPH direct crosswind. I've tried.

VB - just because you're wheel landing doesn't mean you don't need a wing up - the physics do not change because of your technique. You should have the wing up until it comes down with full aileron.

I have control over the AOA with a full-stall landing - it's above stall while I'm in the air, and below just before I fall out of the air.

[mulwyk]

Re: Impression on VG's

Thank you, Len! Good information. Objective. Numbers and a chart. The old engineer in me gives you a big thumbs up.

Hooray for Canada!

Bob Gustafson

[jdoran]

Re: Impression on VG's

I've had VG's for 5 years now. I never flew my plane without them, so can't give you a comparison. I'm on floats.

They can be a pain in the butt, they will break off and they make the plane harder to clean. Re-covering a horizontal stab (or wing) is tougher with the extra work of mounting them.

Consider the fact that the down side of adding them means you are making more work for yourself with little additional gain?????

John