If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

[mhorowit]

If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol what changes would have to be made to tubing and carborator? - MIke

[M Towsley]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

Mike,

My understanding is that using Mogas with ethanol is not an option.

[mhorowit]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol what changes would have to be made to tubing and carborator? - MIke

An article on EAA says there are three issues with ethanol
(http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/knopp_alcohol.html)

-First, the addition of alcohol to gasoline adversely affects the
volatility of the fuel, which could cause vapor lock.

-Second, alcohol present in automobile gasoline is not compatible with
the rubber seals and materials used in aircraft.

-Third, phase separation, which happens when the fuel is cooled as a
result of the aircraft's climbing to higher altitude. When the
alcohol separates from the gasoline, it may carry water that has been
held in solution and that cannot be handled by the sediment bowl.

[mulwyk]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

It's a good question, Mike.

I can see legislation coming that will mandate ethanol in ALL autogas. Current $3+ per gallon will only make it happen sooner.

For now we can test our fuel for ethanol content, or pay up for 100LL. But in the future our choices will be more limited. People like you, Mike, who are rebuilding their fuel systems would be smart to consider the fuels available in a year or in a decade when they choose materials.

Of course, cars and tractors and lawn mowers can run on a modest ethanol-gas mixture. I've run my cars on 10% ethanol for over 10 years with no problems whatsoever. So it can be done.

For now, you'd certainly want to get the steel needle in your carb.

The gaskets on tractor gas caps and gascolator are said to be ok with ethanol and fit T-craft parts just fine. (This info came from the guy that sells tractor parts so I would question it, except I tested the tractor gaskets myself by soaking in 85% ethanol for 10 days with no effect.)

According to Aircraft Spruce, the O-rings they sell for the engine primer are NOT approved for ethanol/gas. So, until we can get ethanol proof O-rings, if you think you might have some ethanol in your system it would be a good idea to check your primer from time to time. O-rings are cheap enough and take just seconds to replace.

I have not seen any information on fuel lines (hose) and ethanol. Does anyone know what type hose would work with an ethanol/gas mix?

Bob Gustafson

[Richard Boyer]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

I saw an outfit at an airshow recently running their C150 on pure ethanol. One of the changes was stainless steel fuel lines.

Won't go as far and isn't easy to get (distribution).

Otherwise, do a google search for Aircraft Ethanol. Seems to be a bit of info out there.

Richard Boyer
N95791

[NC36061]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

The Vanguard Squadron out of South Dakota has performed at Oshkosh and all over the country flying RVs converted to burn ethanol for many years. I don't know exactly what all is entailed in their engine conversions, but it is obviously doable. Of course, those airplanes are in the experimental category. I couldn't find a website for the group, but there should be info on EAA's website I should think.

Dave

[Len Petterson]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

I belive the autogas STC specifies No alcohol in the gas other vise I don't think the engine realy cares. We generaly don't go high enuogh to cause a vaporlock. If you decide to climb high put in the Good Stuff.
Water mixes with the alcohol and it can/will cause corrosion in aluminium tanks and fuel lines. If you find some white stuff in your Gas samples watch out! For alcohol stainles steel make sence, but SS and aluminium causes a galvalic element and corrosion.
Realy bad would be a SS tubing between two aluminium tanks, the tanks would corrode, as SS is more stable than aluminium. A galvalic element is a battery so if you can measure a voltage between the componets you have corrosion. It would be milli volts, a current just the same.
Use steel float neddle for autogas Alcohol or not!
Len

[M Towsley]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

If you have noticed recently several states, including my own, have proposed legislation to have ethanol in all fuel within a few years. EAA has already addressed this with a couple of states and I informed them of the legislation here. I hope they address it here, also. The really strange thing is the ethanol producers won't be able to produce enough ethanol, therefore, they will have to import ethanol, increasing the price overall of the fuel.

[VictorBravo]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

I spoke to a VERY well known expert on antique airplane engines yesterday. This guy is known far and wide as the real McCoy. Please trust me on that point.

His opinion, OFF the record, is that it is not the effect on the rubber seals that is the problem with ethanol. He feels that the real hazard is that the ethanol in gasoline will draw moisture right out of the air and cause water in the fuel.

That being said, he has no problem running car gas in his airplane, but he does check the tanks and gascolator all the time, much much more frequently. And he does find water in it from time to time.

The other big problem according to this genuine guru is that car gas degrades very quickly. If you put car gas in your airplane and let it sit for a few months, you get Jell-O and all sorts of crappy yellow residue that is definitely not safe.

This fellow also assured me that 100LL is probably worse for an A-65 than anything else, because of the lead and the problems the lead causes.

It has been said that a mixture of 3/4 car gas and 1/4 100LL will approximate the old 80 octane fuel the engines were designed for. After having several conflicting opinions myself on the car gas situation, I am starting to think that this mixture and much more frequent checking for water may be the ideal.

Car gas in Los Angeles is now 3.13 or so, and I paid 3.75 for 100LL yesterday, so the cost difference is not a life or death issue at 4 GPH. Either way it's expensive now even to fly a Taylorcraft.

[M Jones]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

The other big problem according to this genuine guru is that car gas degrades very quickly. If you put car gas in your airplane and let it sit for a few months, you get Jell-O and all sorts of crappy yellow residue that is definitely not safe.

Any ideas what can be used to desolve that "crappy yellow residue" in a wing tank so it can be flushed and drained?

[flybikefarm]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

Mike, where do you keep your plane? I live in Streator and get up to Poplar Grove every once in awhile. Will be going through there again May 5th and 6th on way to Oshkosh for the cubs and coupes flyin at pioneer airport. George

[M Jones]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

George,

I keep it at Dacy airport in Harvard, a few miles east of Poplar Grove. I go by Streator on I39 on the way to see family and friends in Bloomington and Decatur pretty often. Fly down when I don't have to haul a bunch of stuff...

I'm out of town the week you're headed north. I get back on a commercial flight late on the 5th into RFD. Let me know your return plans if you're interested in meeting up. By the way, if you haven't stopped in at Morris airport for lunch, it's worth the stop. 100LL was cheaper there last Saturday than it was up here too.

[flybikefarm]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

I go to Morris a couple times a month. I know a lot of the pilots and instructors up there. It's only about 25 min. in the cub from here. I have my plane on a sod strip here at the farm. I am just seven miles east of 39. The next sectional should have me on it. LL52. We stopped at harvard last year on the way to pioneer. Do you know dicky hill? He and jean are good freinds of ours. Spent three days at sun n fun with them in the performers tent. Got to have lunch with the F22 raptor pilots there! If some one was there earlier in the morning at daceys for gas would probably stop there again. Had to wait an hour for gas last year. George

[high time cub]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

Somethings never change.
In the 1961 movie "The Misfits" (Clark Gable, Marilyn Monroe) the pilot
(Eli Wallach) complains about having to use auto fuel in his biplane.
In the 1970s it was the "red residue" from leaded gas that was the bane of auto fuel users.
It will be interesting to see how the 10% ethanol issue resolves itself, especially with regards to our stone simple airplanes.
I just hope that years from now we'll have a choice of fuels to continue to complain about!

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/misfits/essay2.html

[M Towsley]

Re: If we have to use Autogas with Ethanol...

To tag onto the earlier info about storage time issues, Mogas will store for about six months, 100LL for about one year in a storage tank.

Mike, I spoke to a guy by phone who had a very nice looking white T-Craft at Poplar Grove. His plane was featured in an older issue of Vintage Airplane and I wanted to ask him about his wheel pants, since Forrest has yet to answer any of my e-mails or phone messages about what he has available. Really nice guy and invited me up to visit. I got up to Morris once this last winter for lunch and I get over to Decatur now and then as it is very close to where I live. Unfortunately the restaurant there is closed now. Fly over Bloomington to head over to Pontiac for their breakfast, and you may be interested to know there is a breakfast every month at Hartenbower Airport just south of LaSalle/Peru. Nice North/South grass strip where everyone parks paralleling the strip. Some fairly nice old airplanes show up.