Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

[mhorowit]

Assume you're looking at a non-flyable Tcraft tied down outside. Owner agrees she needs serious recovering and acknowledges rain has probably gotten into the fuselage. There are inadequate inspection ports to look at the condition of the spars or the tailsection. Owner agrees that we can open her up to look at spars/tailsection.

What's an acceptable way to patch the holes we make? Just wanna keep water out and not appear to have no regard for his a/c. Is duct tape by itself acceptable? - MIke

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

If it has been outside for ANY LENGTH of time (like two years) assume you are in for a total rebuild spars tubing etc without tearing any thing to look. Get it for cheap and be supprised if any thing is still good. I doubt much if anything is though

[mulwyk]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

I agree. Let's say you do your best to peek through the hole with your flashlight and the spars look good. You KNOW what's gonna happen when you tear the cover off the wings...that's right, you'll find a 6 inch crack in a spar or a rotten spot under a fitting on another. And away you go, replaceing the spars, which means a complete wing teardown.

And so it goes...you think the fuselage tubes look good and then you find those rusty spots! The engine has 0SMOH, but you find the carb needs an overhaul and both mags are dead and an exhaust valve is rusted open. The altimeter looks like new, but a week later you realize it always reads 1520 feet. The brakes are rusted solid and the....well, don't you wonder how come I know this part so well?

Jim is right. Assume the worst, and if it's not that bad count your blessings.

Bob Gustafson

[mhorowit]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

You guys are painting an impossible picture!!!

I touched base with the owner about 6 months ago and have been keeping a low key contact ever since. Three weeks ago I asked him to think about what he thought a reasonable price was. He's asking $8,000. The aircraft has been outside and not flown for three years. The coating is ringworming and peeling and a look from inside the fuselage looks like your looking at the Milky Way on a clear summer night. The fabric integrity is broken around the antenna (center of the cockpit), so water has for sure gotten inside. There is slight rust showing on the tubing.There is only the slightest compresson on three cylinders and none on one.

I composed the following but have not sent it:

"Dear XXXXX:
I took the day off and went out to see the Tcraft again.
I guess my biggest concern is what will be found when the fabric is removed, especially around the tailcone. I tried to determine if there was any rust back there by tapping and listening for a change in tone, but I didn’t hear anything. I did see what could be blistering, so that’s a matter of concern.

You had earlier indicated a willingness to open the fabric so we could look inside. I posed the question to the Taylorcraft forum on how best to do that (see below for the discussion that ensured). As you can see, it is reasonable to be also concerned over the spars condition.

Here’s my logic for coming up with an offer: My friend XXXXXX recently sold his project for $6,000. He had sandblasted parts of the fuselage and primed it as he went along. There was no fabric in place so the buyer knew if there was any rust and the conditions within the wing. The engine was at mid-time and had been pickled. Going from the other direction, I know a Tcraft in less than show quality but better than ‘average’ condition sells for $16,000. Subtract $4,500 for covering supplies, $2,500 for engine parts/inspections, $1,100 for a new prop, something for sandblasting, repairs to the fuselage/wings, priming/painting and we again get around $6,000. Then we need to recognize because she’s been outside and the covering is poor, the spars have been exposed to the weather. I don’t know how much cost would be involved. I’m going to say $1,000. The final cost then comes down to $5,000.

Do any of these costs or logic seem out of line? – Mike"

Does anyone out there think he likely to agree to $5,000, even if we think that's still high?

Folks have been telling me to buy a flying a/c and not a project, and I took that advice for my first Tcraft and was very happy with the amount of time I was able to spend tinkering, so I know a restoration will be a year's effort. But all the Tcrafts I've looked at were last covered in the '70s so they ALL need to be uncovered and unexpected things found. Unless I want to pay something greater than $18,000.

Becoming a nervous wreck- Mike

[dewhitaker]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Hi Mike, take a deep breath and relax....

Sometimes too much information can cause sensory overload. It seems you are on target with your thought processes, now you just have to decide if it is worth your time and effort to get it to a flying condition again.

From a money standpoint, a "fair price" is what a willing buyer and a motivated seller are willing to agree upon. Others may not agree with the price, but so what? It is what YOU think that matters.

Hope for the best, and be prepared for the worst. It would require a large time commitment to restore the ship. But if you enjoy that part of aviation, go for it! Make him an offer, sit back and enoy the journey.

[stukiwi]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Yeah I have been restoring a flying project for over four years. You dont get a great buy do a complete strip of fabric and engine and put it all back together in a year. Look towards the better part of 3 to 7 years for that project. 10 if you get help. But on the other hand there is nothing like the first flight in your restored bird. Be careful and remember paying for hanger space for a project is a pain in the rear too
Good Luck with it though
Stu

[robbie]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Mike,
It took me a little over two years to do my, and it was in great shape,only needed cleaned up and painted before recovering.
Did not need engine work. And I was laid off for three months while I was doing it. That saved me about a year additional time.
I look at my plane, been hangered since it was redone 20 plus years ago, it still looks good, no rust on frame.
If you find a clean one that been inside I would look at it and consider it.

[mulwyk]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Mike:

If you can get it for $5000, that's not a bad price for a project these days. Most seem to go in the $6000 to $8000 range.

You should expect around 2000 hours to rebuild a T-Craft. Maybe more if you tend to be fussy. Many aircraft have been rebuilt over a single winter of full time work, but most folks take a couple years.

Aircraft restoration requires a "Life is a Journey, Not a Destination" philosophy (that's what it says on the wall of my shop anyway). If you're constantly counting the dollars and the hours and wishing you were out flying instead of scraping rust...you're going to be very unhappy. But, if you can forget about flying for a few years and just savor the pleasure of making a beautiful machine...you'll only be sad when the project is done.

Good luck, Mike. I hope you decide on a rebuild project, you'll have plenty of help. But you want to go into it with you eyes wide open.

Bob Gustafson

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Mike Mike Mike.... you have been provided the best advice from the tribe...
(8000 aint bad for a complete airplane flying or not) sure 5000 is better but in the long term scheme what counts is a good complete plane . One together is worth a grand more easy... (like a grand more than a comparable one that is in pieces) Offer something reasonable and enjoy the process of the re-build. I am enjoying my projects a bunch. One day there will be somthing to fly and enjoy in the meantime its still fun.

The tribe has spoken. Go forth GrassHopper. Make offer and buy plane.

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Thank you Jim! For all to consider; even if a lot is bad , a price of under $9000.00 for a flying BC12D project is good... IT IS ALL THERE!
For Mike just buy something good and fly it!! There are no "deals" in Aviation. You get what you pay for!!

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Mike,
I would send the letter just the way you wrote it. If he goes for it, you have your project aircraft. (Look at the good side, it will save you a bunch of money by keeping you out of the BINGO halls).

[VictorBravo]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Mike,

Sit down and decide whether you want to fly, or build. Think about it real hard. Summer's coming and you will be hearing about all of our stories how we landed on a remote strip and camped out, or framed the sunset between the wing struts on a picture postcard day, or took Raquel Welch for her first flight and she smiled that smile and asked how she could ever repay the favor, etc. etc.

If you want to fly, you will have to bite the bullet and dig for the best deal you can find on a flying airplane. If you are honestly willing to build for a year or three, then that is the hobby you are entering, not flying.

Spend some more time combing the internet in places you hadn't looked before. I bought a Grumman Yankee once from an ad on www.globalplanesearch.com after months of looking on other sites. Start calling or e-mailing EAA chapter presidents within 200 miles of your area and asking whether someone has a Taylorcraft they want to sell at a reasonable price.

Bill

[mulwyk]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Raquel Welch?

[AlvinMcIver]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

It just shows his age -- and ours, since we know to whom he is referring.
Alan

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Protect insides from rain (opening fabric)

Mike, Let me give you an example of the build vs buyfly. Today we had one of those famous Carolina Blue Skies days. Hardly a puff of wind 65 degrees no clouds.... you get the picture. So any way there I was cutting on my clip wing spar stock getting it to size...airplanes heard buzzing around every now and then ...still with me ? Well yes it can be tough at times BUT the journey is the essence of life . Yes it would be nice to be up there flying . It is really nice to be living life too. For now the building is fun. I bet the flying will be one day again also. Till then...... Blue Skies