mtn crossing planning

[lktiller]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I will be digesting them for some time. Date is most likely 1st week in June. Next choice is 1st week in July.

I am intrigued with the idea of flying the length of Death Valley. Is this a MOA? Any restrictions? Any way out on the northwest end?

Still have internet problems. DSL modem died. So will be in & out for a while.

[VictorBravo]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Date is most likely 1st week in June. Next choice is 1st week in July.

I am intrigued with the idea of flying the length of Death Valley. Is this a MOA? Any restrictions? Any way out on the northwest end?

Let me get this straight... you want to fly through Death Valley in a 75 HP Taylorcraft... in June and July? The local temperatures can be 120F. The valley floor is 200 feet below sea level and the mountains surrounding the valley are 5000-10000 MSL. If you make a forced landing, with no damage, you are facing a 20 mile walk to the nearest road in some areas, then a wait for a car to pass by. Death Valley is awesomely beautiful and looks like another planet. But I might suggest February or March.

There are MOA's around Death balley but you can get in and out around the MOA's with no problem.

[lktiller]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Here's a Death Valley flying adventure that occured on June 8th. Interesting reading even for one not into soaring.

http://www.mindensoaringclub.org/articles/three_in_one.html

[lktiller]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Death Valley is awesomely beautiful and looks like another planet. But I might suggest February or March.

I'm not totally serious yet about flying up Death Valley, but your remark makes me ponder over my reasons for waiting until June.

What about the weather in May/June over the mtns? Isn't it generally less windy? And not yet terribly hot?

Larry Tillery

[VictorBravo]

Re: mtn crossing planning

I'm not totally serious yet about flying up Death Valley, but your remark makes me ponder over my reasons for waiting until June.

What about the weather in May/June over the mtns? Isn't it generally less windy? And not yet terribly hot?

Larry Tillery

Not only is it windy in terms of overall winds aloft, but that's the tip of the iceberg. It's the micro-meteorology that will cause the most issues. Localized up and downdrafts from thermals are one thing. When those little tornadoes interact with large mountains they get bent and skewed in all directions and you get gusts in 3 dimensions at one moment, with big brown rocks staring you in the eye... and hungry little critters sitting on the rocks smiling at you.

Air flowing over mountains at 20 knots (even without thermal activity) will cause lift and sink that can easily overpower a Taylorcraft's ability to climb or descend. Add density altitude into the game and it can get dangerous for someone who has not done it or who is not a sailplane pilot. And no, it's not quite that hot in May or June... it may only get up to 100.

Honest, Larry, I'm not trying to frighten anyone at ALL. It's just that I do have some experience flying sailplanes in that region (800+ hours worth of XC and competition, a couple of US speed records, etc. etc. sorry for bragging), and I know how strange it can be. I would otherwise be willing to fly through there in a T-craft because I have done it in powerless airplanes... but the sailplanes had a higher wing loading than a T-craft by FAR, and were designed to make use of that turbulence. Glider wings are long diving boards that act like shock absorbers. You get a smooth ride in turbulence in a contest glider. The wingtips flex up and down five feet... you just don't get the HAMMERING and POUNDING that you'd get in a rigid wing airplane like a Cessna or T-craft.

The thought of doing it (in a Taylorcraft or a racing glider or a T-38) without a ground crew knowing where I was is not good common sense. Only because of the stakes of the game at those temperatures and level of desolation. By the way, that holds true for the great big desert and mountain ranges east of Death Valley just the same. Look at the Las Vegas sectional chart sometime, at the eight or ten parallel mountain ranges north-west of Las Vegas. It is a giant washboard and will feel like that flying in the vicinity much of the time.

There's NOTHING wrong with flying through Death Valley under reasonable conditions. People do it all the time, fly-ins and pancake breakfasts and all that. There's a couple of airports and the main highways have traffic. In cool temps and light winds it would be a gorgeous flight. However I would not expect to see any friendly faces if you're stuck on a dirt road in the north end of the valley.

If I were you, I would go to the local pilot supply shop and spend the six dollars on a Las Vegas sectional chart and have a look at the western side of the chart. Then have a glance at the San Francisco sectional and look at the eastern parts. If those charts DON'T give a Taylorcraft driver pause to think, something's wrong.

If you want to see some spectacular sights, consider a flight through the Owens Valley just to the left of Death valley. It is similar conditions, but much more pretty and much more civilization. Go up from Inyokern, CA through the Owens valley, over three or four attended airports, then follow highway 395 to Mammoth Lakes airprot, Bridgeport airport, and Minden, NV airport. Refuel and then go north to highway 50 or Interstate 80, follow one of those roads through the mountains and out to Sacramento.

[flyguy]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Except for one thing, I would indorse that route also. I would be concerned with the down flow on the East side of the Sierra's coming up 395. Haven't been there, except soaring out of Minden, and only up thru Riverside and Tahachipi in a Tcart, but knowing the prevailing winds I would think it might be a bit on the rough side over there, especially in the afternoon. I would think the Southern route around the corner as your described, in say, about May would be great going.
Darryl

[VictorBravo]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Flyguy's right about the Owens Valley, in that there can be some serious downwash in some places and upwash in others. You can fly up the center of the valley above the highway, or slightly east of there and "find" the highway in the sky that does not have downwash. Fortunately, if worse comes to worse you have at least four or five landable areas, three of which are paved airports (Lone Pine, Independence, Bishop).

Larry, if you fly up there in the Owens Valley, the prevailing winds are Westerly and you usually need to NOT be flying next to the eastern side of the Sierra Nevada. Flying above or near the western foothills of the Inyo/White mountains will at least put you in lifting air most of the time. On a good summer day do not fly near the peaks because the thermals will push you up into the clouds. (cloudbases of 20,000 are not unheard of. Being pulled up into the bottom of a 14,000 foot cloudbase in a glider with full spoiler/brakes and a full forward cross control slip is not unheard of. There is a famous photo of a P-38 fighter climbing with both props feathered, taken near Bishop, CA)

Sometimes the very center of the valley will give you smooth air with a moderate crosswind. If you are there in the winter or early spring, and you see the long, smooth, sharp knife-blade looking clouds up high and ragged shredded clouds below, it's time to land and go get a cup of coffee unless you're a sailplane pilot

In short, the original route I suggested (up the San Joaquin valley) will be safest and mildest of all. Death Valley will be scenic but desolate, and downright unsafe in high temps or turbulent days. The Owens Valley route is a much more scenic and civilized route than Death Valley, but it still has the same issues with turbulence and mountains. The Owens Valley or Death Valley routes will require you to be taking off and landing at airports between 4200 and 6800 feet above sea level more than once.

[lktiller]

Re: mtn crossing planning

good stuff!! Thanks all.
Another posting mentioned a Taylorcraft Rendezvous in Columbia, CA. May 26-28. Just might try to make that one since the general consensus is the weather is better in May. Only an hour or so from NutTree?

I've been talking to a friend that regularly flys his c-172 from Travis AFB to Dayton, OH. He flys the southern route ya'll have laid out.
Yes, I've been studying the latest sectionals.

finally got my DSL straightened out so I can catch up.

Larry Tillery

[Jim Baker]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Larry-

I am a native of Durango Co. in the four corners area and have spent years flying in the area you will be passing through. I recommend you fly a line to pass just north of Sandia mountain that sits on the east side of Albuquerque. Then basically follow I-40 out to Mojave CA. Springtime is a great time to fly the area, as the temperatures are not high. In the summer it is not unusual to see density altitudes above 10,000ft. When flying at lower elevations it is most common to fill your tanks for cross country flight but that is not always the case out west were the elevations are higher. My BC12D has a total capacity of 24 gal. I rarely put fuel in the wing tanks when I had it in Colorado. There are fewer airports through the NM, AZ area but still plenty if you need to keep your legs down to around 2 hours due to fuel loads. None of the I-40 route requires flying at high altitudes. I’ve flown this route many times and never flown over 8 or 9 thousand msl - and then only to find smoother air. The route I fly through CA is to Barstow-Daggett then south of Edwards over Tehachapi pass. Tehachapi, like any other pass it can have unpredictable winds so give yourself plenty of altitude before starting over. A GPS around the Edwards area will keep you clear of any restricted areas, although you can do it easy enough without one. Once over Tehachapi, turn north up the valley to your destination.

Good airports to stop at are

New Mexico: Tucumcari, Las Vegas, Albuquerque, Grants and Gallup.
Arizona: Holbrook, Winslow and Kingman.
California: Needles, Barstow-Daggett and multiple ones up the valley.

Using these airports along the I-40 corridor will allow for shorter legs if needed. Most, but not all have multiple runways.

The trip through higher country is not difficult and it is beartiful. It just requires prior planning, watching the weather and temperatures and your aircraft weight. I have flown this area many times on 65 hp.

If you would like more detailed info, e-mail me and I’ll give you my phone number.

[Richard Boyer]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Jim,

Are you based at that little strip on the way from Durango to Purgatory (or Durango Mountain as they call it now)? I saw a tow plane land there once. I thought for sure that guy was going to plant the plane nose first. He flew about 50ft above the runway and stalled it, pitched nose down and flared at the last second. Craziest thing I ever saw (at that time).

Richard Boyer
N95791

[lfries]

Re: mtn crossing planning

In the summer visibility shouldn't be a problem in the valley. It may look horrible but all of our awos and asos machines came from LA so 1 mile is reported as 3. In the summer you will probably hear reports of 10 when it will be around 5.In regards to food in the Valley. Porterville, Woodlake, Fresno Chandler, in the foot hills Pine Mountain Lake all have good restaurants on the field. Porterville may still have 80 octane.

[Jim Baker]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Richard-

I live in Ohio now. The base I was flying out of in Denver was closed and I value the time with my family so we decided not to commute and moved to a little town near Cleveland. We are all anxious to get back to Colorado but that won't be until both kids are out of highschool in four years or so.

I know the strip you are talking about - up the valley, but I was never based there. Alot of my flying was in AZ/NM/CO area as there are not many places to go up the valley unless you have a big engine to get you over the high country.

-Jim

[lktiller]

Re: mtn crossing planning

I'm headed out west in the Tcraft! Leaving Friday, May 19., weather permitting in North Alabama. Perdictions look ok. Will be following the cheapest fuel stops thru north MS, south AK, Probably overnight in east OK KRKR. Would like to make KAEG Saturday PM.
Looks like it will be a headwind most of the way!
leave Albq Sunday PM, overnight in Winslow. On to KEED, KDAG, KPTV, KMER & KVCB.
Winds and weather changes everything.

Larry Tillery
N95901

[rdwater]

Re: mtn crossing planning

Let me know when you will be getting to ABQ and we can do dinner/lunch. Double Eagle (AEG) on the west side was recommended earlier. It now has two runways, though only 40 degrees apart. The two FBOs are heading toward one FBO and the price of fuel already went up! I keep my BD12D in Los Lunas Mid Valley about 20 miles south. It has 1 N-S runway and cheaper gas than ABQ or AEG - much smaller field. Bob

[taylorcraftbc65]

Re: mtn crossing planning

. If you make a forced landing, with no damage, you are facing a 20 mile walk to the nearest road in some areas, then a wait for a car to pass by.

GEE, that sounds just like Hudspeth county Texas. By the way guys, next year I'm planning on going to the Arlington Fly-in with Manu Sina. When I get closer to the trip, I would really be thankful for advice on the route from El Paso to Arlington Washington. I'll probably fly from El Paso to Demming to refuel, then to St. Johns Az. from there, I'd probably head to Flagstaff. From there, I have no idea. Brie