Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

[mhorowit]

Just to have in my back pocket, I’d like to hear from folks who are not A&Ps who have overhauled an A-65. I’m particularly interested in whatever arrangements you made with your A&P.

Obviously he’d want to see it in pieces for an inspection.(How did you organize the layout of parts or did you just throw them all in a box?) Then a decision as to what needs to be sent out or otherwise addressed. Now, at what points in the assembly will he want to take a look? – Mike

PS – Yes AlwaysSoar, the Continental A-65 Overhaul Manual is in the mail

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Mike,
If you replace the bearings and get everything else yellow tagged and then it is rather quick and simple to assemble a good engine. An A&P might be able to do the yellow tags if properly equipped, but more likely it will take an engine shop to do many of the yellow tags.

Examples:
Crankshaft: mag particle inspection and runout inspection
Lifters: leak check
Cylinders: Weld any cracks, check diameter, out of round, cylinder taper
Rocker Arms: Check faces and weld and grind as required
Case: Dye penetrant test, line bore if required.

Some of those yellow tags can get expensive.

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

I just had my engine overhauled. My IA did not want to do it unless everythiing was yellow tagged including the rocker arms. We had to get a yellow tagged crankshaft because mine was scored and not repairable. We got the crankshaft from Aircraft Specialties in Tulsa (pricey). The camshaft was ok as were the rocker arms, case and accessory case. Bought some timing gears because of some pitting--IA says that items that are pitting can be a problem because they will start to make metal. Everything was yellow tagged at an FHA approved station. It cost more than I thought it was going to. The airplane flew again in April. 63 hours later I am real happy with it. I am glad the mechanic insisted that we do it this way.

Frank
N43684
BC12-D

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Mark/Frank - understand what you are saying.
Could you talk to what your interaction was with the A&P _after_ the parts were returned with the yellow tags? e.g. what were the milestones where he wanted to see what you had done? - Mike

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

The overhaul was not something I was expecting or had planned for. Again, I had to trust the IA and sometimes I doubted him and wondered whether he had my best interest in mind--He did a professional job and I am happy with it although the wallet is lighter. The IA did a great job and I am happy now--but I did the overhaul the way he wanted to do it. It cost me a lot more than I initially thought it would but I fly the airplane several times a week and in hot weather and the engine does what it is supposed to do. I have to believe that the engine will last a long time if I fly the airplane properly and service the engine the way it should be serviced.

Good Luck,

Frank

[S2D]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Although one can overhaul an aircraft engine (especially the small Continentals) without the need for many Yellow tags, I would agree with Franks mechanic, that the only way I'd sign off an engine overhaul that I didn't completely do myself is if all the Parts were yellow tagged or personally inspected and reconditioned myself. And the engine was assembled under my direct supervision. All it takes is one untorqued bolt or one missed cotter pin to ruin a guys career. So you probably wouldn't be saving much in the first place. Better to offer to clean parts and do all the legwork instead.
Any mechanic signing off an overhaul by an inexperienced person without personally seeing the entire assembly and measurements is asking for an abrupt career change. And yes I know, A-65's are simpler little creatures than volkwagon engines, but one doesn't have to sign his life away when he overhauls a volkwagon engine.

[Frank DeBartolo]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Just to clarify things. When I said I did the overhaul, I meant that I paid for everything and agreed to do it the way the IA wanted it done. He did the labor and I helped him. He did the work. But I felt the $$$$$$ being spent and that is why I feel I did it. I only helped. He did all the supervision and really all the work. I did the grunt stuff he wanted me to do. I learned a lot.

Frank

[Mark Julicher]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Mark/Frank - understand what you are saying.
Could you talk to what your interaction was with the A&P _after_ the parts were returned with the yellow tags? e.g. what were the milestones where he wanted to see what you had done? - Mike

Mike,
Given:
a collection of yellow-tagged parts that all belong to an A-65,
a set of new rings that match the oversize grind of your cylinders,
a gasket set with rubber pieces, (Highly recommend Rober Weber Inc or Fresno Airparts see both in Trade A Plane)
a new set of bearings that match the undersize grind of your crankshaft
a new nose seal,
a quart of marvel mystery oil,
a tube of aviation permatex,
two pieces of silk or cotton thread 18 inches long (# 4 silk suture is excellent if you know a doctor or vet with expired suture material)
serviceable spark plugs,
serviceable magnetos and harness,
case of Dr. Pepper,
carafe of coffee,
large deep dish pizza, minnows optional.

A novice A&P could assemble this collection of stuff into an A-65 in a few hours - maybe half a day depending on how close the rest room is to off load the coffee. A&P would want to see all parts and review the yellow tags before starting. A&P would want to check torque on the rod bolts. A&P would want to see the thread properly laid onto the case halves. A&P would want to see the gear timing marks aligned correctly.

In other words, the A&P would require more time running back and forth doing piecemeal inspections at your shop than it would take to just stand there, drink your coffee, eat your pizza, and put the engine together.

The expense of doing the job *right* is in gathering yellow tagged parts.

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

So, if this is to be, on day 1, I'll show him all the parts, and on day 2 I'll assemble it at his location. (If that's the route to go; mid life engines seem to be going for $4,000). Nothing keeping me from practicing before going in for the final. - Mike

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

serviceable spark plugs,
serviceable magnetos and harness,

Are the magnetos actually part of the O/H? I mean if I bought a rebuilt engine, it would come with carb., mags., or plugs wouldn't it? - Mike

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Are the magnetos actually part of the O/H? I mean if I bought a rebuilt engine, it would come with carb., mags., or plugs wouldn't it? - Mike

change that to would _not_ come with carb., mags., or plugs -Mike

[Guest]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Attached is a Continental Service Bulletin that says what Continental requires at an engine overhaul.

Figured that may be of interest.

It's a .pdf hope it comes comes thru ok. Dave.

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Attached is a Continental Service Bulletin that says what Continental requires at an engine overhaul. Figured that may be of interest.
Dave.

Whoa! - Did you read that part that said the accessories must be overhauled at engine overhaul? and it says it again "... magnetos and engine fuel system must be overhauled." (I read fuel system to mean carb.?)

and look at what must be discarded and replaced with new parts.... no ifs ands. or buts. Look at that. The pistons get thrown out, no questions asked! holy cow

Unless I'm reading this wrong, getting involved in an engine O/H is going to involve a rethink. - Mike

[Guest]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Whoa! - Did you read that part that said the accessories must be overhauled at engine overhaul? and it says it again "... magnetos and engine fuel system must be overhauled." (I read fuel system to mean carb.?)

and look at what must be discarded and replaced with new parts.... no ifs ands. or buts. Look at that. The pistons get thrown out, no questions asked! holy cow

Unless I'm reading this wrong, getting involved in an engine O/H is going to involve a rethink. - Mike

Yeah, it's big bucks. one could completely ignore their bulliten and do a half baked job, but then you get one of the engines that needs work (like a TOH) at 100 SMOH. That always cracks me up.

Good judgement may lead you to ignore selecte parts of it, for instance, if youhad a low time harness you might elect to keep it. (my opinion)

Much of what they say makes sense, for instance, why would you put a worn out magnetos on an overhauled engine? the bearings in that mag perhaps have not been serviced in 1000+ hours and 25 years. Wanna fly on that?

I have always measured each part as I assemble( feeler guage, plastigage...), that slows things down but I have gotten a few yellow tagged items that were wrong so I measure rather than believe.

All this talk of overhaul reminded me I have c90 to put together and I got the case back from Divco 4 years ago and never checked it. Probably ok but bet if anything is out of sorts they won't listen after 5 years. Maybe I can't blame them if they don't!

Dave.

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for Overhauling A-65 Experiences

Attached is a Continental Service Bulletin that says what Continental requires at an engine overhaul. Figured that may be of interest.

Well, you certainly got my attention; now, what are you going to do to help me to get back to sleep? - Mike