Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

[mhorowit]

Well, I lost out on a chance to purchase a nice plane because I wanted a pre-buy and someone else just wrote out a check unseen.

What do you think of this approach: Offer the seller a reasonable amount to hold the aircraft until a pre-buy can be arranged. If the results of the pre-buy indicate major problems, money is refunded. Unfortunately, this approach does not take into account any price negotiation.

Anyone have a preferred approach they could share? - Mike

[crispy critter]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Mike,
If I am very serious about buying an airplane then I will offer a small non-refundable deposit pending a pre-buy and personal inspection....I make an agreement with the seller that the deposite will be refundable only if the airplane is far worse than pictured or described.Take a copy of the pictures and a printed copy(if available)of his describtion just to have in case the airplane is not as it is suppossed to be.In the same respect to the seller,if you send him a deposit and want him to hold it until you can come look at it or have it looked at by someone else then you should be equally serious about buying it providing he has been straight with you.
A fair deposite price depends on the selling price and condition of the airplane and also the amount of time you want him to hold for.For example,If the asking price is $9000-12,000 then $200-400 is a fair deposit,$12,000-16,000 should be worth $400-600 deposit to hold the airplane for 30 days.The non-refundable deposit just tells the seller that you are serious and not just another tire kicker looking for a free test drive at the sellers expense.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Mike, poll this group for ALL the ideas and details and make-or-break items they use on a pre-buy. Write them all down. Start asking local IA's near you what they look for on old fabric taildraggers. If anyone in Alliance will answer the phone, ask those same questions. Get yourself up to speed, where you can do your own pre-buy. Then, when you find something you want to look at, a quickie airline ticket will allow you to be in the right place at the right time.

I am happy enough to be the first to give you a few ideas, but please, all you IA's, olde-tyme T-craft owners, and guys with more experience than me pleasae pipe up and post your knowledge. The consensus of everyone's ideas should actually be compiled into a pre-buy guide that Bob O. can put on the website.

First, prioritize. Look at BIG picture stuff first. The biggies are obvious.

Look at the tube structure for any bad repairs, damage or corrosion. Now that you are getting close to being able to weld on an airplane, you would do well to find an airplane that has one bent tube or one bad repair and everything else good. That's something you can fix, but it lowers the price of the airplane.

IMHO, you need to check the upper X tube intersection above the cabin. If this is tweaked or repaired, the plane has been bent hard or flipped.

The lower longerons get rusted out like all other fabric taildraggers. Bring an ice pick or a pointy center punch. Push hard at many points on the bottom longerons in the rear fuselage. If the seller says no you can't test the longerons, then tell him that the airplane HAS rusted and unsafe longerons, and that's how you will price out the airplane unless he has some other way of proving that they are solid.

Squeeze and poke the tail surfaces the same way. They're hard to get, expensive, and also subject to corrosion.

Look at the landing gear for spliced tubes or bent pieces or corrosion. Breaking a gear leg on landing will cost you a seriously broken airplane.

This one is from personal experience!!! Lift one side of the plane off the ground by lifting up on the struts right at the wing attach. Listen (and feel) for any clunking, creaking, cracking, or wood noises. Have it quiet so you can hear. Do it several times on each side. This will indicate worn attach fittings, broken or cracked spars, or other potwentially serious problems.

Closely inspect the lower wing strut-fuselage attach. You don't want to see any rust, wear, or cracks here of course. If you see minor rust, then all you have to do is take the struts loose and clean it up, but it should play into your offer. It also will show you how much the previous owners cared about the airplane.

I believe new wing struts are still available from someplace, they're in the current Aircraft Spruce catalog. But they're $2500 for a set. Patched struts are safe if done right, but they're ugly and will lower the plane's value. This is something you can fly for a while and replace later.

The one big thing about old airplanes is that you can't trust the logbooks. Everyone on this group can tell you a story about how the logs said one thing and the airplane said another. The more detailed and in-depth the log entries are, the more you can trust them. But the logbooks are NOT to be taken as gospel without looking at the airplane to see if it matches the logs.

If you look at the airplane and see a repair to the top of the fin, a splice on the upper cabin X tubes, a patched up cowling, and a new propeller....but nothing in the logs about a groundloop or nose-over....guess who's not telling the truth about their airplane for sale? Guess what may or may not have happened to the crankshaft and/or landing gear?

The cylinder compression numbers are relatively minor. All they do is raise or lower the selling price of the plane a little. ANY aircraft mechanic at the seller's location can do a compression check for you, with you watching. As long as the airplane runs well and can fly home safely and smoothly, top overhauls are relatively minor expenses when you get back home.

The condition of the sheet metal cowlings is a larger than average issue, only because of the difficulty in getting new ones. Banged up, patched, bent, dinged lower engine cowlings are common on all old airplanes, and it will be a fair expense to get a brand new one if they are even available. It's not a safety issue at all, but it should be used to determine how much the plane is worth. The stamped metal nosebowls are available ... for SEVEN HUNDRED dollars from ACS. Call the Taylorcraft factory and ask what they charge for a BC-12 lower cowl.

If the airplane has been run on car gas, knock off $1000-2000 from the price right from the start. If they did the "correct" mods to the carburetor and fuel system, then knock off a thousand because it's still not good for the engine and it still fouls up the fuel system. Big yellow stains on the cabin side of the firewall or the lower cowl give it away. If the guy just says "Heck, I been runnin' car gas for 529 years and I ain't never had no problem...I didn't not have to change nothin' on the airy-o-plane or the carby-eetor" then knock off two grand because he's an idiot AND the carb may be shot.

I just risked my life last February flying 500 miles over water and pine forest with a bad carburetor. Some backyard Bozo modified the carb for car gas with a plastic needle, but forgot the counterweight on the float arm, f#%ed up the needle seat and then safety wired it backwards, and had the carb bowl full of sediment. The airplane quit on takeoff one fine day, LUCKILY while I was still halfway down the runway. The IA who looked at the carburetor afterward is a bona fide expert on the Stromberg carbs and has thousands of hours flying and maintaining them. He said that carburetor should have failed long before I got the airplane back home. Car gas was OK for airplane engines 50 years ago but today's car gas is NOT SAFE to use on an avgas engine. Period.

When you do a pre-buy, tell the guy you will put 5 gallons of fuel in and that you want to fly it with him for half an hour. His response will speak volumes.... pay close attention. When you do fly it, you're looking primarily to see how smooth the engine operates, how well it idles, whether it is running on all cylinders, whether it feels like it it making power, and any strange noises. You are also checkign the carb heat, exhaust, etc.

See if the plane can be trimmed to fly straight and level. If not, you need to know why. Control rigging is easy enough to do, but why is it out of rig?

You are also looking for any unusual trim tabs that have been put on the wings. You are also looking to see whether the rudder trim tab (if installed) is bent way over to one side.

When looking under the cowling, see if it leaks oil, but more important see if the amount of oil leaks matches the general cleanliness of the engine. If you have a dirty, old, multi-colored engine with grease on the outside, but the bottom of the crankcase, oil tank, and lower engine cowling are dry as a bone, then someone probably has cleaned up a big leak so you don't see it. The Continentals leak a little. It's normal and not a big thing. They almost always leak from the bottom pushrod seals at the crankcase. It is normal to have some oil film on the bottom of the engine, carburetor, etc. Having a lot of oil there is not good. It doesn't mean anything is unsafe, but it means that you will be taking it apart sooner than later. That's not a catastrophic thing, but again it is a difference in dollars. A newly overhauled engine should not be leaking very much at all. An old engine can leak some, and fly safely for hundreds more hours, but it will use more oil.

OK, enough ranting from me. All the guys here who have more experience, or IA's, or whoever please feel free to add to this so Mike can do his own pre-buy.

Bill

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Good stuff. Attached is a strawman checklist I put together. It's based on the basic list on the Tcraft site, but puts a bit more meat on it - Mike

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Mike,
If I am very serious about buying an airplane then I will offer a small non-refundable deposit pending a pre-buy and personal inspection....I make an agreement with the seller that the deposite will be refundable only if the airplane is far worse than pictured or described.Take a copy of the pictures and a printed copy(if available)of his describtion just to have in case the airplane is not as it is suppossed to be.In the same respect to the seller,if you send him a deposit and want him to hold it until you can come look at it or have it looked at by someone else then you should be equally serious about buying it providing he has been straight with you.
A fair deposite price depends on the selling price and condition of the airplane and also the amount of time you want him to hold for.For example,If the asking price is $9000-12,000 then $200-400 is a fair deposit,$12,000-16,000 should be worth $400-600 deposit to hold the airplane for 30 days.The non-refundable deposit just tells the seller that you are serious and not just another tire kicker looking for a free test drive at the sellers expense.

Kevin - no question, you're correct; but you have to be ready to pay the asking price with no negotiation (unless you spot something and he's willing to reduce the price). That runs counter to the discussions concerning TAP where the asking price is just a starting point! Do you think face-to-face negotiations would be different? - Mike

[crispy critter]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Mike,
Even when sending a deposit I try to make sure there is some room for negotiating.Price haggling is half the fun in buying.

[lfries]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

When I bought N96718 I asked the seller if he would take X dolllars if the plane passed a pre buy. He said yes so we started the process and I bought the day the pre buy was done. Just a day or too after our discussion. I enjoy haggeling but with an airplane $ are spent on a pre buy and I didn't want to spend them if there was no agreement on a price beforehand.

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Mike,
Even when sending a deposit I try to make sure there is some room for negotiating.Price haggling is half the fun in buying.

How did you make room for negotiation? hadn't you already agreed to a price, pending results of the pre-buy? Seems the only negotiation would be if the pre-buy turned up something and the seller was willing to agree that the finding reduced the price. Correct?

Maybe I need to include the phrase "agree to purchase for the sum of $xxxx unless the results of the pre-buy inspection indicate repairs are required or both parties agree to modify the purchase price".

I think that would allow a reduction in price for things found during the pre-buy, and allow for general negotiation related to the market value of similar Tcraft. What say?

- Mike

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Look at the tube structure for any bad repairs, damage or corrosion. Now that you are getting close to being able to weld on an airplane, you would do well to find an airplane that has one bent tube or one bad repair and everything else good. That's something you can fix, but it lowers the price of the airplane.

Careful, I'm nowhere close to getting within 100 ft of an a/c with my rig!! . I'd first have to show the local EAA chapter Tech Counselor that my work is acceptable, then convince my A&P that any work was done under proper supervision. Then we'd have to learn 'practical' welding i.e. how to avoid setting the a/c on fire . Nope. Long way from approach an a/c.

The lower longerons get rusted out like all other fabric taildraggers. Bring an ice pick or a pointy center punch. Push hard at many points on the bottom longerons in the rear fuselage. If the seller says no you can't test the longerons, then tell him that the airplane HAS rusted and unsafe longerons, and that's how you will price out the airplane unless he has some other way of proving that they are solid.

If I can reach the spot, I'll give it a try, but won't I be removing primer or other rust preventative?

Squeeze and poke the tail surfaces the same way. They're hard to get, expensive, and also subject to corrosion.

Huh? we're talking fabric tail surfaces. You mean the frame for the tail surfaces, right? Sorry, when I get hyper, I get literal

Look at the landing gear for spliced tubes or bent pieces or corrosion. Breaking a gear leg on landing will cost you a seriously broken airplane.

I'll do my best, but most landing gears are covered

This one is from personal experience!!! Lift one side of the plane off the ground by lifting up on the struts right at the wing attach. Listen (and feel) for any clunking, creaking, cracking, or wood noises. Have it quiet so you can hear. Do it several times on each side. This will indicate worn attach fittings, broken or cracked spars, or other potwentially serious problems.

I can get the same results from lifting at the wing tip, and twisting while holding the spar ends,right?

If the airplane has been run on car gas, knock off $1000-2000 from the price right from the start. Car gas was OK for airplane engines 50 years ago but today's car gas is NOT SAFE to use on an avgas engine. Period.

FOOD FIGHT, food fight
What about the EAA STC allowing car gas to be used on my A-65?


- Mike

[VictorBravo]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

........................

Nope. Long way from approach an a/c.

OK, but you are at least moving towards it. That puts you ahead of me and lots of others.


If I can reach the spot, I'll give it a try, but won't I be removing primer or other rust preventative? Yes, you will be poking thru the fabric, primer etc. But if a tube is rusted then it will be easy to push through. If you find rusted longerons on an airplane you just paid $15K for, believe me you'll be pissed off.


Huh? we're talking fabric tail surfaces. You mean the frame for the tail surfaces, right? Sorry, when I get hyper, I get literal

OK, calm down. Yes I mean the rube frame under the fabric. Same poke with a scratch awl or squeeze with your hands hard.


I'll do my best, but most landing gears are covered

You will feel the splice right through the fabric. Feel for a row of "rosette welds" or spot welds. This will tell you the LG has been repaired fairly well. If you see two different diameter tubes under the fbaric, it was sleeve-repaired. If it was done right, it's OK but take off a little money because it's ugly.


I can get the same results from lifting at the wing tip, and twisting while holding the spar ends,right?

NOPE! First of all, you want to lift it by the strut-wing junctino to feel for loose attach bolts and fittings. Lifting by the wingtip bow will just bend the bow aqnd rightfully piss off the seller. If you can reach the spar ends with your finger, you probably have cut two holes in the fabric. You can lift a LITTLE bu the last full chord rib, but the primary test IMHO is the strut junction.

FOOD FIGHT, food fight
What about the EAA STC allowing car gas to be used on my A-65?

If I am not mistaken, it requires a lot of testing to see whether it meets the requirements. AFTER the EAA STC was approved 15 years ago, they started putting other crap in the car gas. It almost cost me a crashed airplane and a loss of $15K. Choose wisely.


- Mike

[crispy critter]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Mike,
Ask if the price in negotiable,see how far he will come down off the asking price,then talk about a deposit based on that price and then if the pre-buy turn something up you can always point that out and try to haggle some more...BUT,if you send someone a deposit then you should be very serious about buying the airplane for the price aggreed upon.You can always try to get the seller to come down some more on his price but don't always count on being able to do that.If you agree to a price enough to send a deposit,plan on paying that price unless the airplane is not as the seller said it was.

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Kevin - I sure hope my expectations aren't out of wack. I paid just over $14,ooo for the original Tcraft, which had 500 hours on the engine and good fabric. That's still about right for the same quality, right? - Mike

[crispy critter]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

Yes Mike,That is a very good price for a taylorcraft in the same condition as the last one you bought from Ashland....in fact it would be a bargin now.

[mhorowit]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

I gotta work on keeping these things on the runway! - Mike

[alwaysoar]

Re: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

If $14K is a baseline for a 500-hour-engine on an airplane with "good" fabric (Crispy now says that's a bargain--I agree), then some amount should be factored in for engine overhaul and recover. For example, if $4.00 per hour is the cost of an overhaul at TBO, then a 0 SMOH airplane would be worth $2K more. If twenty years is a reasonable time between recover jobs on average, and it costs $15K to do the recover and associated repairs, and assuming your basic airplane has ten years on its cover, then a brand new cover job would add another $7.5K to the value. Now a rebuilt, 0 time airplane in this example would be worth $23.5K. Just a way to look at it. Obviously, TCrafts are not going that high, and there's a lot of other factors to consider, but if you're buying a plane to hold on to, as most of us seem to do, it makes a lot of sense to buy a good plane to begin with and it's going to cost more.