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  • Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

    I just got off the phone with an FAA airworthiness inspector, regarding my wing attach fitting wear problem. I have a quandry and would like to ask for help, especially from Forrest or anyone who is an official DER...

    The FAA guy reminded me that the approved acceptable repair data (AC 43.13) says that for this problem you simply weld washers on the fittings over the holes, sort of round doublers for the wing fittings. That's just great if you have an airplane in pieces and are doing a restoration. It usually requires disassembly of the wing root fitting from the spar, as well as fabric removal. Not an attractive proposition for an otherwise restored, flying airplane.

    We measured the wear on the fittings and it was only about 10 thousandths. An AN-5 bolt is .3125" diameter, and the largest worn dimension of the hole is .322". What we found was the the hole could be reamed out to a .322" uniform hole, and still leave enough metal on the fitting to NOT have an "edge distance" problem. There would still be more than one bolt diameter's worth of metal left between the edge of the hole and the end of the fitting. If we reamed out the holes to .322, and then machined an AN-6 bolt from .375 down to .322", then it would repair the wear perfectly, and leave enough metal on the fitting to be acceptably strong.

    The problem is that this would require either a field approval complete with a DER signoff, or a letter from the aircraft manufacturer stating that it is an acceptable repair on a Taylorcraft model B.

    However, this method would allow the repair to be made without taking a flying airplane and reducing it to pieces. Very attractive from my perspective!

    The FAA was not happy about the idea of filling up the hole with weld, then drilling it back out.

    Forrest, is there any existing engineering data or prior approval for this kind of a repair? Would the T-craft factory (under present circumstances) give me a letter saying that my proposal is an acceptable repair? Is there any other method of repairing this problem that does NOT require me to take a flying airplane down into pieces?

    All assistance appreciated. Forrest, last few times I tried to e-mail you directly it didn't get through or was lost in your inbox.

    Bill Berle
    Taylorcraft : Making Better Aviators for 75 Years... and Counting

    Bill Berle
    TF#693

    http://www.ezflaphandle.com
    http://www.grantstar.net
    N26451 (1940 BL(C)-65) 1988-90
    N47DN (Auster Autocrat) 1992-93
    N96121 (1946 BC-12D-85) 1998-99
    N29544 (1940 BL(C)-85) 2005-08

  • #2
    Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

    Isn't there a metric size bolt that measures .322.You must be careful about mechianing a bolt to a smaller size because if not done exactly right and properly re-tempered it could make the bolt brittle,soft,and/or change it's shear strength.
    Kevin Mays
    West Liberty,Ky

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

      I work at an MRO on the Boeing 757 and 737. We often repair cracked or worn holes in structure like engine pylons or floorbeams by oversizing the hole and installing an oversize bolt, with Boeings approval of course. For instance if you had a 1/4" bolt there are 2 oversizes "X" which is one oversize and "Y" which is 2 oversize. If I remember correctly each oversize is about .010" After a Y oversize you have to go to the next size bolt or if not allowed by Boeing the frame has to be replaced. Perhaps you can find oversize bolts to use after the hole has been reamed true. Might be an easier "sell" than machining down a bolt to fit.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

        R. Winger, do you have access to a couple of these oversize bolts? Is there a repair spec from Boeing that illustrates this type of repair? If you have access to this info, then I could go to my local FAA inspector and say "Here is a Boeing-approved repair method... the FAA already accepts the data and engineering used to design the repair method"

        The availability of a published repair procedure used by no less than Boeing itself would go a long way towards allowing me to perform a similar repair on another type certified airplane.

        I will also make it well worth your while if you can send me a couple of the X and Y oversize bolts in the size I need... nobody around these parts has heard of an oversize bolt

        Bill
        Taylorcraft : Making Better Aviators for 75 Years... and Counting

        Bill Berle
        TF#693

        http://www.ezflaphandle.com
        http://www.grantstar.net
        N26451 (1940 BL(C)-65) 1988-90
        N47DN (Auster Autocrat) 1992-93
        N96121 (1946 BC-12D-85) 1998-99
        N29544 (1940 BL(C)-85) 2005-08

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

          Could you send a picture of your elongated fitting. It might not be as difficult as you think to weld on washers without messing up your otherwise restored plane. Also mention what kind of covering you have (ceconite, polyfibre).

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

            Don't have photos, but it is pretty simple. There are two fuselage fittings, and two wing end fittings. The two pairs of fittings overlap and one bolt goes through from front to back. The holes were (presumably) originally .3125" diameter, the same as a standard AN-5 bolt. Now the fittings are worn out between 5 and 11 thousandths. The holes are longer spanwise than they are vertically. The wing can move in and out relative to the fuselage, not up and down.

            The airplane has Stits fabric (Yay!!) on it.

            The wing fittings are bolted to a wooden spar, and so welding on that fitting would damage the spar. The fuselage fittings are half an inch from fabric, so the heat from welding would wreck some of the fabric. there is not much room between the wing and fuselage to doa ny welding, unless you disassemble the wing completely and de-rig the aileron cables.

            Reaming the holes very slightly and using an oversize bolt is the best, easiest, and least damaging way to do it. But the paperwork and engineering approvals are the tough part.

            Bill
            Taylorcraft : Making Better Aviators for 75 Years... and Counting

            Bill Berle
            TF#693

            http://www.ezflaphandle.com
            http://www.grantstar.net
            N26451 (1940 BL(C)-65) 1988-90
            N47DN (Auster Autocrat) 1992-93
            N96121 (1946 BC-12D-85) 1998-99
            N29544 (1940 BL(C)-85) 2005-08

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

              Bill

              I'm heading back to work tomorrow night, Friday. I work the midnight shift (4 and 4) so I may be able to sneak some time and see what I can find in the books. My wing mount bolts are somewhere in a box. What size are they?

              Roger

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                Bill,

                I would get in touch with Bill Hill. He has a shop on the Banning Airport. I have marveled at his welding abilities for many years and am convinced that he can weld 2 pieces of chewing gum wrapper together. He has done some rather "tedious" welding for me in past years.

                I think those fittings could be welded "in place" easier than you might imagine. Something else I would try to determine in this process is, how did the holes get elongated in the first place? Under normal conditions those fittings should never wear...no movement means no wear. If you're showing wear at those fittings, you might want to check and see if a previous owner "stretched " other fittings past their limit.

                I hope this helps.

                Your friend,
                Ken

                1941 BC12-65
                W4SWK

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                  Roger, they are AN-5 bolts, about 2 or 2 1/2 inches grip length. I can get an exact dash number if it turns out you have these bolts available.

                  My largest wear dimension is .322" max width on an oval hole. I would like to ream the hole out to .322 or .323 and have the bolt as a tight no-slop fit.

                  Thanks VERY much for finding any documentation on this type of a repair, I really appreciate it.

                  E-mail me privately if you like at victorbravo (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net

                  Bill Berle
                  Taylorcraft : Making Better Aviators for 75 Years... and Counting

                  Bill Berle
                  TF#693

                  http://www.ezflaphandle.com
                  http://www.grantstar.net
                  N26451 (1940 BL(C)-65) 1988-90
                  N47DN (Auster Autocrat) 1992-93
                  N96121 (1946 BC-12D-85) 1998-99
                  N29544 (1940 BL(C)-85) 2005-08

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                    Hi Bill

                    Spent a bit of time on your problem last night. It seems you would need NAS6605-"length"X or Y, whatever the length is you need. I can send you what I have out of the SRM. It shows oversize limits for composites, aluminum and steel, but I don't see how it will help you to legally sign off your Taylorcraft.

                    I did find a website that lists oversize bolts here


                    And the required reamer


                    Searching through AC43-13 myself it seems pretty clear that reaming is not allowed, unless approved by the Faa. You probably read this yourself.

                    "Elongated or worn bolt holes in fittings, which were designed without bushings, are not to be reamed oversize. Replace such fittings, unless the method of repair is approved by the FAA. Do not fill holes with welding rod. Acceptable methods of repairing elongated or worn bolt holes in landing gear, stabilizer, interplane, or cabane‑strut ends are shown in figure!@#$!4‑25."

                    Would an Faa representative go out on a limb and approve your repair? Maybe. You did get your skylight approved without the STC, correct? I wouldn't mind seeing that paperwork myself. Hint, hint.

                    Is it possible to get the wing attach fittings? Replacement as painfull as it is, may be the best way to go.

                    Rog

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                      Originally posted by VictorBravo
                      I just got off the phone with an FAA airworthiness inspector, regarding my wing attach fitting wear problem. I have a quandry and would like to ask for help, especially from Forrest or anyone who is an official DER...

                      The FAA guy reminded me that the approved acceptable repair data (AC 43.13) says that for this problem you simply weld washers on the fittings over the holes, sort of round doublers for the wing fittings. That's just great if you have an airplane in pieces and are doing a restoration. It usually requires disassembly of the wing root fitting from the spar, as well as fabric removal. Not an attractive proposition for an otherwise restored, flying airplane.
                      We measured the wear on the fittings and it was only about 10 thousandths. An AN-5 bolt is .3125" diameter, and the largest worn dimension of the hole is .322". What we found was the the hole could be reamed out to a .322" uniform hole, and still leave enough metal on the fitting to NOT have an "edge distance" problem. There would still be more than one bolt diameter's worth of metal left between the edge of the hole and the end of the fitting. If we reamed out the holes to .322, and then machined an AN-6 bolt from .375 down to .322", then it would repair the wear perfectly, and leave enough metal on the fitting to be acceptably strong.

                      The problem is that this would require either a field approval complete with a DER signoff, or a letter from the aircraft manufacturer stating that it is an acceptable repair on a Taylorcraft model B.

                      However, this method would allow the repair to be made without taking a flying airplane and reducing it to pieces. Very attractive from my perspective!

                      The FAA was not happy about the idea of filling up the hole with weld, then drilling it back out.

                      Forrest, is there any existing engineering data or prior approval for this kind of a repair? Would the T-craft factory (under present circumstances) give me a letter saying that my proposal is an acceptable repair? Is there any other method of repairing this problem that does NOT require me to take a flying airplane down into pieces?

                      All assistance appreciated. Forrest, last few times I tried to e-mail you directly it didn't get through or was lost in your inbox.

                      Bill Berle

                      Hi Bill. a few thoughts to consider. You are correct about removal prior to welding however the added kink is that when(if) you weld the washers in you must do it on the inside of the "plate" that comprises the front and rear portion of the fitting because the spar fitting fits INSIDE the fuselage fitting ie. the outer diminsion of the spar fitting must remain constant AND what makes this very difficult if not impossible is that even if you removed the fitting and put it on a bench to work on there is not enough radial room around the hole on the inside to weld a washer of the size required in ac43-13 on because of the fitting constrction. I just pulled a fitting out of the box and looked. Very difficult to "washer" even on a bench.

                      Also if you ream to oversize on the front fitting (It is the front fitting, correct?) You must find a way to keep the wing accuratly in place and still so you can ream. For example if you pull the front wing bolt out to ream what stops the wing from moving while you ream and then you have an even bigger elongated hole? If you pull the front bolt completely out the wing may swing back and fall to the ground. I saw this happen once

                      Military handbook #5 gives acceptable values for edge distance from a hole to the metal edge and you will find that usefull in determining the max hole size you can use. Maybe you used this already but I have submitted and gotten approval (without DER) in the past for feild approvals of "washering" fittings by using the the data in mil hdbk 5 it is accepted data and refered to in ac43-13

                      Hope this helps, Dave.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                        Exserts from AC 43-13;page 7-10
                        7-49:
                        " NAS6400 series bolts.
                        These are close tolerance bolts and are avelable in two oversized diameters to fit sligthly elonggated holes. these bolts can be ordred with a X' and Y' after the length, to designate the oversized grip portion of the bolt.( I.E NAS 6404-6X for a 1/64 inch larger diameter).
                        the elongated hole may have to be reamed to insure a prope fit. "
                        New washers,nuts and proper torque and the wing will stay on!
                        Get god help and practice on a scrap pice before doing the plane.
                        Len Petterson.
                        Last edited by Len Petterson; 06-06-2005, 19:44.
                        I loved airplane seens I was a kid.
                        The T- craft # 1 aircraft for me.
                        Foundation Member # 712

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                          Victor......I am building up a clip-wing and just installed the new leading edges today. I looked at my wing, and since the front fittings do not have the drag/anti-drag/interplane strut attached, I am absolutely certain I could replace the fitting without disassembling the butt rib.....if the rib was covered over, you could cut out enough fabric to do the job w/o hurting the rest of the wing. No way in a hot place could you weld it in place, or, now that I think about it, do it if you have a wing tank in place.....good luck......Marcus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                            Today's update...

                            We removed the starboard wing. Thanks to the pre-WW2 trusss style ribs, Marcus is right. I was able to cut a little fabric out of the root rib and get my hands/tools in to remove the spar fittings without cutting fabric off the top or bottom.

                            The front was easy, the rear was harder due to the compression strut fitting. But desire, cleverness, and "field engineering" triumphed. We got both fittings out through the root.

                            The passage in AC 43-13 does indeed prohibit reaming or filling the holes with welding rod. The FAA fellow was right, once the spar fittings were out it is now a relatively easy matter to weld doublers onto the fittings and bolt everything back together.

                            The trick is that we will assemble the loose spar fittings onto the fuselage fittings, with the new doubler washers captured in place. This guarantees the bolt will go through all 4 new washers! Tack-weld the washers, remove the fittings, and finish weld.

                            The real loss is that I could probably have flown up to the Columbia fly-in with no problem. DAMN!

                            Bill
                            Taylorcraft : Making Better Aviators for 75 Years... and Counting

                            Bill Berle
                            TF#693

                            http://www.ezflaphandle.com
                            http://www.grantstar.net
                            N26451 (1940 BL(C)-65) 1988-90
                            N47DN (Auster Autocrat) 1992-93
                            N96121 (1946 BC-12D-85) 1998-99
                            N29544 (1940 BL(C)-85) 2005-08

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Assistance Needed Spar Fittings

                              Glad to hear it's working out Bill. Have fun

                              Roger

                              Comment

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