180HP or 100HP

[Swick-T N7010S]

Hi guys,
I have been floowing this forum for a whaile and there is lots of great indormation about the Clip Wings. I have a 180 HP Swick that is inthe process of a rebuild that I have flown for about 100 hrs prior to the restoration. I really enjoy flying it but I'm belive that I would rather have a 100 HP for the lower operating cost and more low and slow flying like the 41 T-craft I used to have.
My airplane N7010S was build by Bill McColough and Van White from Lubbock TX first flow in 1988. I was told that this airplane was used as the Swick demonstarted on their brochures and literature it also won the 1994 National IAC championship in Sportsman flow by Karren McCollough. Mike Swick has done some work on this plane and I was told he was also involved in the construction.

My question is if I should rebuild this palne with the 180 HP and find a different project and convert it to an 100 HP. Since this plane has some interesting history. Or just rebuild this palne with a 100 HP. I wouldn't mind getting a ELSA or certified standard category Swick .

Is ther any interest for a 180 HP Swick T if I was to sell it as project or flying.

Mike

[Forrest Barber]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Go either way with engine , but I always like the quote from Turner or Doolittle or some great Aviator " nothing beats horsepower" For economy just pull back on the big knob in your hand. YES I know there is a weight penalty too. lets see how the gang responds....

[Jim Herpst]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Well gang, I am now committed (or should be admitted to the nut house) I am going for each wing at 12 feet 3 inches. NOW should I go for the bigger motor? I can probably get a 110 hp out of a C-85 with the 0-200 crank and some other concoctions stired in . Rate of climb is an issue.. I will use a climb prop for obvoius reasons.. I have decided I do want a starter (lightweight) and alternator (micro light) and I will have wing tip lights perhaps

Forrest raises a good issue with the statement "just pull back on the power"
but weight is still an issue ...so is fuel burn. Well what do you all think???.

[Acroeric]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

I have had both, flown both and like them both- just for different purposes. Inmy opinion Nothing beats a LIGHT clipwing at around 700 pounds with a hopped up Continental (85, 90, or 0-200) Wing loading can not be altered with horsepower- it is physics- we can not make it stop. If you put a 360 in a Tcraft it will weigh 1000 pounds empty. (OK maybe 950 if you put helium in the tires and cover it in monokote) The 360 will pull it around with authority but it looses the Tcraft feel and doesn't fly light. It makes for a great airshow machine though. I think it all depends on the mission. If you want to compete through intermediate and do some airshows go with a 320 or 360. If you want a super nice sport plane that is sport pilot legal, easy on gas, and indestructible in the air put a little continental in it. There are so many opportunities to lighten them up with the smaller engines that you can come extremely close to an equal power to weight ratio with the Continental.

Let's do the math. . . . both setups are for a 30 minute aerobatic flight- not cross country- hence the light fuel loads

1000 pound 180 hp clipwing with a 200 pound pilot and 75 pounds of fuel=
1275 pounds/ 180hp = 7.08 pounds per hp

700 pound hopped up C90 powered (110 hp) with a 200 pound pilot and 40 pounds of fuel= 940 pounds/ 110= 8.5 pounds per hp

Yes- the Lycoming wins on the power to weight ratio but look at the fuel burn-my 180 burnt 11 gallons per hour at max power. The 180 HP Pitts on my field burns over 12 per hour.The weight of th e180 Lycoming powered plane also puts it out of sport pilot when used as a 2 place airplane and is only 1.4pounds per hp better when considering power to weight ratio. The wing loading however is 24% higher.

Everything in aviation is a compromise- For me the little Continental works out to be my choice.

[crispy critter]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Guys,
I really think the question he wants to know is weather it would be better to sell this on as a project to someone who will keep it original so he can find another project and build with the lighter cont or remove this one from it's originality and convert it to the smaller cont.
I believe from the way he worded his question that he has already made up his mind to go with the cont but wants our opinion on what to do with the one he has.
Mike, my adivce is to do what you want. I agree with the tribe, for sport flying I would perfer the cont. but your bird has a lot of interesting history that, in my opinion, would be a shame to loose or cahnge from it's originality.
Keep the one you have original and build another with the smaller engine....if you want too, it's your bird and your call. Good luck and let me know if you take an interest to sell or trade to another t-craft project or something.

[Swick-T N7010S]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Thanks guys,
I have not flown the lighter Clip wing T's I have only flown mine and Warren Pietsch's. The empty weight is about 1050 on mine but acording to the logs it weight in at just under 900 when it was build.
Out of the members on the forum here is onybody wanting to build a O-320 or O-360 Clip wing? I know Eric is a beliver of the light low horsepower conversion. I have talked to Eric a few yeas ago when I lived in ND and was trying to sell my plane an he had the Certified O-200 Swick.

Mike

[Acroeric]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Mike- I seem to remember several wanted ads on Barnstormers for Swick T's. You may take a look there.

I take it yours is experimental? If so- I agree there is some history there but it sure is alot of work to build these things. It would be much easier to put yours on a diet and install the Continental than to build up another one. The Lycoming 0-360 has a strong following due to all the RV builders- you would easilly sell the engine- or trade it for a 0 smoh C90 or 0-200. Just a thought. I would be glad to send you my little list of weight savings ideas. . . . some are not practical but they are there for evaluation anyway.

On second thought I will post it to the clipwing gallery- Again- this was brainstorming- and I have some storms between the ears!

[Jim Herpst]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Found a guy here locally (within 18 miles) that is the largest dealer for used Ercoupes/parts parts in the US. He has been steadly buying up the damn things over the past 20 years and now has several fields of them! First thing he does is pull the engines and sell em .SOO seems he has a ton of C-75 engines around. I think I will pick one up and use it as a basis to put in the 0-200 crank and c-90 cam. Thinking also about possibly mill the bottom of the heads and do some polish on the intake . I spoke with Don down in Atlanta at Dons Dream Machines and he said the C-75 case will work just as well as the c-85 case for this. I really need a good core for now that I can hang on the plane with the exhaust(luscombe)and air box I will use . reason being it is on the schedule for March to be sent to another chap I know who does aircraft sheetmetal fabrication He will build me a new boot cowl, firewall, and coweling. Since its a 1940 I may just have him build it as an open cowl which will be unique on a clip wing as most folks go for the speed !! He does great english wheel work.. .. Am going to start posting pics soon . The Spars all 12 feet of em should be down at ASS (Aircraft Spruce) in Atlanta they say in a week and a half.. I figure more like a month

[Forrest Barber]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Just had to jump back in a moment, all this is good advise. Light & nimble is good. Heavy and lots of horespower is good. Chocolate is good, vanilla is good. egads now what do I do.
Anybody know about the proposed "Taylorcoupe" being started by a gang in Alaska , I am going to work with them and will post more if they say do it. clipped of course , uses the Rotec 150HP radial....any body used it or its little brother?? they look like baby R-2800's.

[Swick-T N7010S]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

I have actualy debated on installing the 110 HP Rotec on this project. The problem I have is that I don't know if I can do any acro. I wan't to be able to compete at least in Sportsman. The other is the reliability and parts supply. It is hard to beat the small Continental. Does anybody know anything about that Buschwhacker comany? They had a Clip Wing version with the radial.

There are a couple of guys at Broodhead WI that are installing a 90HP Lambert on a T-craft. They looked at my project to get some info on the shorter wing and the structal changes on the engine mount. They also are going to put a side by side stick assembly in their airplane. Very nice set up that have come up with.

Mike

[Jim Herpst]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

I considered the same thing. After "some" research I have come to the conclusion that it is not proven enough for me. Why? WELL ASIDE FROM SPEAKING WITH THE DEALERS WHO THEY (ROTEC RADIAL INC) SEEM (TEND)TO CALL USERS I found no one who has any significant time on the things. Fact is most of em were screwing around with the installation (which they all said was not easy to say the least. ) I believe the thrust line is a great deal different . Bottom line I will let the others sort that all out and go with the Continental. I really like the idea but for now I will go with proven mods to proven airplanes and proven engines. That is experimental enough for me .

[Vasey fan]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

Forrest,

Round motored "Taylorcoupe"?

Those guys have been reading my mind.

[Acroeric]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

I have often thought that one could shorten the fuselage a little, clip the wings and put the little 110 Rotec on a Tcraft and have a poor man's clip wing monocoupe. It would be alto of work but so is any homebuilt aircraft these days. I - like Jim will leave that to someone else for now!

[Jim Herpst]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

A friend and I spent a lot of time discussing and researching the practicality of this. It can and should be done by someone or somebodys. We also thought of the name Taylorcoupe. I guess none of us are very orginal or at the very least this group thinks a like !! I figured you were with me on this Eric. Lets leave it to the hard core experimental guys... let them bask in the "glory" of EAA doing an article !!! Mean time back to cleaning up my pre war ribs and eagerly awaiting the spars from ASS. Oh again any one know where I can get a set of post war elevators with the trim attached?

[zero.one.victor]

Re: 180HP or 100HP

My 2 cents: pretty hard to beat the flat engines. The smaller radials look cool but aren't really such a great thing, in practice. Lambert,KenRoyce,Salmonson,Warner,Kinner- - the Warner's probably the best of that bunch, but is maintenance-intensive.The more practical ones start with the 670 Continental & 680 Lycoming. I understand that the Rotec engine is geared, and so doesn't even sound like a traditional radial. No thanks, I think I'd stick to a Continental-- "powerful as the nation" ya know!

Eric