Clip wing ailerons

[gmackay]

Anyone know if the Cole conversion used a counter balance on the aileron like the swick conversion? Or did it use spades?

[Dennis D'Angelo]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

[QUOTE=Dennis D'Angelo]Gmacky:

Don't remember seeing any spades on the Cole and I am not certain whether the aircraft had counter balance.


My friend owned Art Scholl's clipped T-cart (very smiliar to Cole's) and the ailerons had no form of boost to lighten aerodynamic loading. Basically, the ailerons on the Scholl T-craft were dynamically balanced to prevent any flutter and had not other modifications. My friend stated the ailerons were a little "stiff" near Vne (set at 140 MPH if I still remember), but nothing he couldn't over come--he was of average build.

For my clip, I will dynamically balance the ailerons and leave it at that. She is not an Extra 300, just something to fly Sportsman aerobatics with.

dd
PS: How close are you to Princeton KY? I have a freind restoring Aeronca's in Princeton and visit that area often. d'

[gmackay]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Thanks, that sounds interesting. Do you know any more about Sholl's version of the clip wing? (like wingspan, engine, etc)

And mapquest tells me I'm about 220 miles from Princeton, KY. But your welcome here if you ever get out this way.

Greg

[Dennis D'Angelo]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Gmackay:

The Scholl modification, as I remember, was simple and efficient. It had to be since they built in a short time period.

I remember the basic Taylorcraft was a pre-war model with a slightly larger rudder. The wingspan was about 28 feet--like many of the clips we see today. If memory serves me correctly, the wing tips were retained since the ailerons were untouched.

Interior was really rough. Basically it was a single-seat aircraft with a centerline stick in place of the yokes. The inboard rudder peddles were dropped and the pilot flew using the outboard ones only--much like the Swick. The headliner was removed and some of the stringers were roughly sawed or snapped off to ensure head clearance. I vaguely remember two small oval clear panels above the pilot head for over-the-top visibility--not the full-view panels you see on the clips of today. Both the original doors were retained and I think so was the bench seat.

The tail feathers were largely untouched--remember the basic concept was to be quickly built. The tail brace wires looked original, but my friend stated they were slightly larger than the stock Taylorcraft--note, there was only one set. Elevators were stock, but they may have added an extra hinge to each side--three on each side. Pitch trim was the old pre-war flying fin under the horizontal stabilizer.

Landing gear was welded fixed with no shock absorbing capability and I remember the wheels and tires being smaller that stock--no idea what size, but I imagine 5 inch rims.

I believe the clipped-T in the UK is the closest match to the Scholl aircraft--sans the two control sticks. It is the version I would like to copy, since it retains the lines of the classic T-craft and, in my case with an A-75 for power, the nose shape as well. What are you looking for in/from your clipped-T?

Thanks for the offer to visit. I will give you a call the next time I visit Wright-Patterson AFB OH or my friend in KY. Maybe we can hook up?

dd

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

A lot of interest here recently regarding the clipped wing Taylorcrafts. Bravo.
There are a bunch of BLs out there that beg for a trim job in my humble opinion.

I have one that is being treated with having the orginal wing root bay removed and the last bay having a foot cut out of it. Keeping the stock ailerons and eliptical wing tips. All in all the new wing is working out to about 12' 10'' long.

Cannot decide if I will go with an electrical system or not. It will be a C-85 with a stroker kit (unless I can find a C-90). It will be light as possible though no matter.

[gmackay]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Dennis,
Thanks for the info. I have purchased the Swick plans, but like Eric, I'm not sure I want or need to do all the mods listed. I'm hoping for a 100HP light as possible clipwing for mild acro and also something to teach my wife to fly. I have a single seat Pitts now but need something with two seats, and just have no interest in a C150.

So your info helps as I'm trying to make many of these decisions. It seems there are no 2 clipwings the same. I'm no engineer, so I'll stay with changes that have been done before and proven.

I know this might be a stretch, but do you know if the Scholl version modifed the strut attach fittings on the fuselage like the Swick? (to match the new angle of the shorter struts)

Jim,
I'm also thinking about using the stock aileron and eliptical tips, but I'd like to try a little shorter wingspan (if possible). I guess yours would work out to about 28'? Do you have any concerns about the placement of the aileron brackets in relation to the compression struts?

[Dennis D'Angelo]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Greg:

Sorry, but I don't know what the strut arrangement was for the Scholl. Like you I would like to keep the wing span in the 28-30 foot range--otherwise you have a stock T-craft--and the strut issue would be something to solve. However, there may be an alternative.

I'll do a little experimenting on paper to see if we can keep the tip bow and still use the Swick design (I have a set of Swick plans). At first glance it appears that if you use the Swick wing layout and keep the tip bow you will not add much wing span. Using the Swick layout means the strut placement is already solved for you. As for the ailerons, if you study the Swick plans, the modifications are focused on the booster tab and changing the shape of the surface to fit the square wing tip. Keeping the old wing shape and using spades should not require any modifications--except for where the spades mount onto the surface.

One last thought, is whether to use the push rod control system or go with a cable system like on the Cole. The Scholl used cables, so I would say it worked for him (and Margaret Ritchie) it should work for us as well. My guess is it would be much simpler and lighter. Your thoughts on my discourse.

dd

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Dennis,
You sound like you are on track with me. I studied and studied the Swick plans AND the STOCK wing. My conclusion is that if I cut out the first wing root station of the stock wing and take a foot out of the last station (outboard) and move the aileron over one foot I am really close to the Swick plans. Also I plan on staying with the cables ( Hell I am evan keeping the yokes..part of the pure Taylorcraft thing I cannot leave behind. )Also I am not into big time Acro anyway.

Greg, my aileron brackets placement is very close to the Swick plans .In fact it works out a little better in my unqualfied opinion. I am not concerned with doing this on my airplane. Also the strut fitting will need to be rotated slightly like the Swick plans show.I am going to fit the two struts bolted together and set at the diehedrial I want and get a straight line to the fuselage before I start drilling the fitting /compression bracket there for sure !!

Lets keep this thread going guys. I am very excited about seeing how light I can make it. I will confess though that I will have heat and enough insulation to be comfortable (ok so its all relative here and I do live in South Carolina!!)
Also I am really thinking hard about the starter /electrical system I will probably pass on this but we will see.

[gmackay]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

There must be something to the universal wavelength theory.......you ought to see the drawings on my desk. I've been thinking along the same lines. The clip wing cub's remove the inboard bay, and that's what got me thinking about it. Although I really like Warren Pietsch's 24 ft wingspan, but since I won't be doing the things he does, I was hoping for 26-28 ft.

And my wife wants a starter so I'm hoping to do a lightweight starter and a small motorcycle battery, no alternator, etc. I've heard it's possible to do this on an experimental and still keep the same cowling.

And yes, it's good to hear some clip-wing info!

[Acroeric]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Guys- It is great to see the clipwings in progress. I have been building these things for some time now and have several hundred hours in them- you will have a great flying plane if you do what you are speaking of. The larger engines do fine with the really short wings but with the little 0-200 or C90 it helps to have a bit more. I have been playing with some drawings as well and think I have designed a workable wingtip that will enable the use of a stock aileron without the little short wood rib on the end. I was trying for a Monocoupe look and think I have gotten close.

Keep in mind though that when you start just eliminating bays you change the symmetry of the struts, drag wires, fittings etc. It is impossible to cut down a stock wing and have the correct spacing. I once saw a clipwing in TX that had the inner 4 feet chopped off of each wing. I found both spars to be badly broken due to the now sharper strut attach angle and the poor placement of the strut attach points. The struts attached at the inner 5 feet of span leaving about 7 feet outside the strut fitting.There is a good bit of aeroeyeball engineering in the wings- I will list the critical items I have learned:

1) Strut angle at wing and fuselage attach needs to be linear
2) Struts need to attach at 65-68% span
3) Double up on false nose ribs if using anything bigger than an 0-200 (yes, I collapsed a leading edge @ 170 mph)
4) Rib spacing of 12" is perfect. Anything closer is wasted weight. This spacing makes wings really easy to build.
5) Use pre war aileron hinges if you can find them- they are way stronger than the cast hinges and are easy to make if you have to.
6) Do not use the Swick type fuel tank set-up. It is a leak waiting to happen. I recommend the stock wing tanks wiht a header tank of 8-10 gallons. Use the header for most acro and fill up the wing tanks when you go XC.

As for material it will be some type of laminated wood. I have some (borrowed for molds) Swick wingtips but I just preffer the rounded look plus the Swick tips are 11 pounds each! The laminated tip would weigh at most 2 pounds each. . . . there went another 18 pounds-

I am almost done with my sticks and plan to get some quotes from a local machine shop. There will be minimal welding as well so it should be an easy install. maybe in 3 weeks I will have a quote-

[Dennis D'Angelo]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Eric:

Thanks for the information. Can you provide the recommended strut-to-wing angle? This number, or a min/max range, would be useful. A quick SWAG (Scientific Wild-As_ Guess) shows about a three foot gain in the Swick wing span if you keep a stock looking tip. If one uses the Swick spar layout and 12 inch rib spacing shouldn't the drag wire and strut attach locations be correct? Keep us up-to-date with digital photos of your project. Thanks for the advice.

dd

[Acroeric]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Dennis- I will have to get back with you on the new angle of my brackets. It seems like 26 degrees but I need to double check my drawings. I love the SWAG thing- that is the source of most of my changes. . . . . and the LRTM (looks right to me) theory.

The Swick drawings are very helpful but I must stress that I am not using them to build my wing. Mine is simple and much lighter. Everything is on 12" centers and the drag wire spacing is a little different except for the tank bay- you are stuck with that angle due to the holes in the tank. I drop one compression strut and eliminate one bay of drag wires. The wood leading edge allows me to do this- I would not advise it if using metal ribs.

As for the wing tip- I plan to add around 1.5' with the tip. The span will be adjusted to keep the span down to 28' or so.

I have been busy building 1 rib a night. So far I have 5 completed, just 21 more to go. . . . . .

[Jim Herpst]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

My wing will be 12 feet 6" total (as in from the root to the center of the stock tip. Is it short enough one may ask... Well for me and 100 HP and the density alt in the summer around here it is plenty short enough. The Swick plans are good to build from Dennis or should I say as a referance .We all have opinions and I agree with Eric that they just add a lot of weight and do not provide what I am looking for. Again they are a good referance.Your only issue as far as the plans go however will be if you plan to keep the stock tips. You need to watch where your strut attach point ends up. The Swick plans show 64% point. The stock T is around 62% point. Angle is best determined by lining up the whole shebang ON THE PLANE in my book anyway but again you need to have the location figured prior to for the proper attach point (ratio) Mine will be at the 65% point. I can live (and fly and live with that) Study the Swick plans a lot and refer back to an assembled stock wing. Things will make sence from there.

[Vasey fan]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

I guess I'm in pretty good company here. I've got a set of Swick plans also & after studying them, I've decided not to do a number of things in there.

What's the consensus on the change of incidence on the horizontal stab? Good, bad or indifferent?

BTW, if anyone has got a decent set of Cole plans I'd like to buy a set - or at least get a good look.

[Vasey fan]

Re: Clip wing ailerons

Anyone know if the Cole conversion used a counter balance on the aileron like the swick conversion? Or did it use spades?

Duane had a set of spades on his airplane in '88 when he did a show in Minot with the Pietsch's, Jack Grahn & Bud Granley (some other "old" guys that could really show off an airplane). I believe they'd just been installed that summer.