Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

[tboneturk]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Hello everyone,

Has anyone received a new set of factory struts yet? How bout a report on what you think?

Thanks,
Brian

Can anyone give me prices on new strutts for a 1980 F21 Thanks John

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

FIRST we must see that the TC's AND the data, drawings, E.O's , all paperwork needed are transfered to an entity that can sell them without any falsehoods.
This is being worked out now with the FAA and the former TC holder. IT will become a real legal issue. I am still monitoring the situation, at Sun-N-Fun we had all players there for questions, nothing seemed to happen.
Remember , Forrest (thats me) is not the Foundation, we have a Board of Director's , they are still saying hands off. I will try to come up with a plan to "acquire" the various TC's ; some are out there in limbo, the Small Aircraft Directorate is starting to come around. The Taylorcraft Type Clubs will meet with them on an individual basis. OUR TC's are #696 & #1A9 held in Texas;

There is also A Group II approval for the Model A plus the TC #643,
the other B models TC #699, TC #700 and the Model D TC #746 ; then we have the four place ships 15A & 20 TC #3A3 ; Plus the Airphibian ( Fulton flying automobile). I think I have enough data stored here in Alliance to prove that I can "support the Type Certificate". Still looking for Meg's article in GAN , I ahve the hard copy in the office. It is not magic, I just read a lot.

[barnstmr]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Well said, Mike!

Thats why I say, Foundation - forget making new airplanes. Lets focus on obtaining the TC data so we owners have the information we need to maintain our airplanes (owner produced parts). And as we see the justification for it, lets share the data in support of those who are on track to make and approve good replacement parts under PMA.

Jigs and tooling are another story. Wouldn't it be nice if these were purchased and then made available by the foundation to its members for use in restoration and repair work? Again.. this could be done as owner produced parts.

But none of this is possible or feasible at the RIDICULOUS asking price currently on the table.

[UNIVAIR]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Well, here is something to ponder. We’ve owned several T.C.s over the years including the Taylorcraft. We have never had any intention of ever putting any of these airplanes back in production and there are several reasons for this, we don’t have the facility for it, we don’t have a Production Certificate for it, getting a Production Certificate to build completed aircraft would be a huge headache and expensive. It would result in more Feds climbing around here and we learned from history that many of these companies had their day in the sun and are gone for a reason. There was no LSA for most of our history to consider in our decisions.

We still own the T.C.s for the Ercoupe and Stinson 108 series. We cannot go back into stock and get all of the parts it would take to build an airplane. We tell people we have about 90% of the structural parts for these airplanes. So, we don’t have headliners and door latches and a lot of other parts. I could spend all day explaining the reason for that, so I’m not going to go there. The fact is, we don’t have everything. What we do have are the parts that your average Ercoupe and Stinson owner will call and request on your average day i.e. cowling, struts, ribs, control cables. The average Stinson owner is not going to call up asking for 18 gauge wire to re-wire the original instrument panel lights on his airplane or gasket for a King Seeley fuel gauge sender.

There about 3,000 to 4,000 line items in the Ercoupe, Forney, Alon, M-10 inventory. Most of these parts are left over from when these aircraft were in production. However, in any given year there are zero sales on about 86% of this inventory. Now, these are very rough numbers but my illustration is still valid. Of that 14% to 15% of inventory lines that had sales, it is only about half that amount, (7% to 8%), that actually generates the lion share of revenue that we receive each year off of that project. The reality is, most of these other parts would not be used unless you were going to build the airplane. What is nice, if somebody wants some obscure little do-dad gusset that we sell once in a blue moon, we have it. My point is, only a couple hundred items do the heavy lifting for the project.

Now, on the T-Craft project these 200 or so “heavy lifters”, they have been sold and are long gone. They are gone by virtue of demand. Effectively, to do justice to the project and the greatest amount of good for the most owners, one would need to identify what these “heavy lifters” are and make them available. This is a much more “bite size” way of looking at things and certainly the way demand would naturally steer you. Some of the other odd ball do-dad gussets may be in the existing inventory, but if not – welcome to our world. Do you have the prints, do you have the tooling, can you make a production run worth you time, will you ever sell the balance of the run before the sun burns out, can you make it at a price the market will bear etc…?

This my friends is how you need to view the project. I afraid for those who think you will be on the fast track for a $40,000 LSA aircraft, time to up the medication.

Mike Sellers
Univair Aircraft

[jstall]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Well that certainly makes sense. I'm too old and don't have either the financial recourses, energy or expertise to put that together and make it go. I flew more than I wrenched through the years. If I were 30 years younger I think that it might be done, it would be hard hard work, have to be very conservative in what one did or didn't do and?? above all very creditable.

I just hope that something postitive can come from all this, and at this particular point? that is very questionable, in my opinion or for as long as Mr Patrick and D&E are associated, in my opinion they are no more creditable than Mr Ingram. I would have felt differently had they made good on the deal for my parts but they didn't, and that is that. Many others very torked off also.

JS

[UNIVAIR]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

I Agree Mike, If We Could Do Something On It, Would Univair Be Interested In Managing The T/c Under Contract From The Foundation? I Don't Know What Forrest Has In Mind Or Even If He Is Interested In This Deal, But It Would Be Good If We Could In Some Way Control That T/c And Not Allow A Repeat Of The Recent Past In Abuse Of Our A/c

Js

Well guys, I have to be careful what I say here because somebody might take what I have to say seriously. Number one, I cannot answer that question in any official capacity for the company because we don’t have anything specific to talk about. Number two, I’ve not been granted the authority to speak for the honchos who sign my paycheck about what they may or may not do. So, I can only speak in very general terms at this point and as a fellow airplane guy.

When it comes to the T.C. ownership, either you own it or you don’t. If you own it you generally are going to control the destiny of the project better by managing it yourself. Treating like an apartment building for somebody else to run I believe has been a contributing factor leading up to the present situation you have with the project. For any of you who have a farming background or heritage you know that when you farm your own ground one will find the terrace work and fences kept up in better shape than if the place is rented out. That same farmer is also perhaps a little more inspired to work the ground and control the weeds a little better when he is making mortgage payments versus rent payments.

I think the Swift Association is the best model to look at as how to do this. And to that end they have managed that project much along the lines of what Bill Berle has roughly outlined. The Swift people have used us as a vendor to make some things, but we are not their sole vendor. They have other suppliers and manufacturers as part of their total supply chain. In theory, you would think that it would be pretty wonderful if all the sudden we got a bunch of T-Craft work on some sort of exclusive agreement. Well, right now all of our shop guys ARE being kept busy; otherwise you would not have to wait for struts. If we had to hire on staff, yes we can stick a few more bodies in the shop but not that many more and regardless of what their experience is, there still is a learning curve to have to put up with on every new hire. If and when the vendor agreement ends, what happens? We don’t like being put in the situation of handing out pink slips.

As a Sales Manager what I’m going to say next is in one respect heresy, but years of business experience has made me a little older and wiser. It is a wonderful thing to have a nice big account. Looks good on the books. Something you can pat yourself on the back about, but we ourselves are not General Motors. If you get too comfortable with a handful of very large accounts and you start to get fat on them, it gets to be a very painful day when you loose one or you are having trouble getting them to pay on time. Like my farmer, a good one won’t put all of his acreage into one crop. Doesn’t hurt to run a few cattle either.

Regards,

Mike Sellers
Univair Aircraft

[jstall]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

I Agree Mike, If We Could Do Something On It, Would Univair Be Interested In Managing The T/c Under Contract From The Foundation? I Don't Know What Forrest Has In Mind Or Even If He Is Interested In This Deal, But It Would Be Good If We Could In Some Way Control That T/c And Not Allow A Repeat Of The Recent Past In Abuse Of Our A/c

Js

[UNIVAIR]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Bill and others,

Yes, the smart money would be not to re-invent the wheel. However, I still stand by my point that you will need a core of knowledgeable, dedicated people to pull this thing off. You guys cannot view this thing as a part time auxiliary function of the Foundation that can be done at 10:00 at night and on every other weekend. For one thing, your fellow T-Craft owners are going to have a level of expectation that is going to be beyond being served at 10:00 at night and on every other weekend. You do need to be thinking about paid staff for this thing if you put your toes in the water.

Mike Sellers
Univair Aircraft

[jstall]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Yes Yes, That Is The Right Idea

Bill


Js

[VictorBravo]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Thank you Mike, as always you are level-headed and know what you are talking about. Mr. Stalling is enthusiastic about all of us owning this thing, and so are a lot of others.

However, reality check, the absolute truth here is that (if the Foundation did try to make a go of this) the Foundation is really only in a position to own the type certificate, and then FARM OUT (license) the manufacture of the parts to a known PMA contractor who DOES this kind of thing on a daily basis.

There are many good PMA houses out there, Univair being possibly the best and most experienced. Aerometals in Sacramento is another top shelf joint that the FAA loves. Wag-Aero is another place that makes PMA parts. There are several others I don't know of but could be just as reliable.

If the Foundation owns the TC, then they have the legal authority to contract out the manufacturing/PMA job to some company that the FAA recognizes and has already licensed to make legal replacement parts. This subcontractor (Let's say for the sake of discussion their facility is somewhere in beautiful Colorado) then qualifies with the FAA to make the parts for the Foundation. Using their previous experience and credibility with the FAA, they get the PMA to make these parts. The Foundation buys the parts from the PMA house wholesale, and then retails them to the Taylorcraft buying public at a slight profit to cover the cost of paperwork.

The Taylorcraft Foundation does NOT have to crank up a whole manufacturing facility, and approved process, quality control, paperwork, tracking material sources, etc. That would be STUPID of the Foundation to want to do. More than one PMA house has a good relationship with the FAA, and already jumps through the flaming hoops necessary to manufacture airplane parts!

The GOOD part is that if the PMA subcontractor either fails to produce, reduces the quality, or over-charges for the work, the Foundation can simply license the manufacture of parts to some other PMA house.

[UNIVAIR]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

We have not been actively trying to sell the Ercoupe Type Certificate, but we get about a half dozen inquiries a year from individuals who express some interest in buying it. Before we would even consider turning loose of it, we have several requirements we would expect a potential buyer to meet. We attempt to weed out the dreamers versus the guys that would actually stand a chance of making a go of it. We tell them they need to have as part of their organization a person who is familiar with the fabrication of this type of product. Well, Forest would certainly fit the bill, but you need to have a good purchasing person. Finding materials is getting harder and harder. Maintaining your costs starts with your purchasing. Uncle Sam is going to expect you to keep a paper trail on everything. You need bean counters. All of this is going to be stuff that people are not going to be able to do properly after working their day job. Plan on being employers and all the joy that comes with that.

I’ve been reading your threads with great interest. You guys are batting around and chewing on ideas that are every day things here. Something you haven’t discussed too much is liability. We always have to keep in mind that even doing our best job, there is some tort lawyer out there just waiting to point out to a jury how badly we did something. You guys talk about doing this for no profit. Have no worry about that. It’s the making profit part that becomes hard sometimes. It is natural to look at something we sell and say I can make that damn thing in 15 minutes and it would cost me a lot less. Sure. No PMA, No Feds, no paper trail, no guy to pay to buy material, no warehousing cost, etc, etc… That 15 minute part has a lot of overhead to carry here and 15 minutes might be 2 times too long to make it here and make money.

Regards,

Mike Sellers
Marketing and Sales Manager
Univair Aircraft Corp.

[jstall]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Keep The Thread Alive Guys

[jstall]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Not making a clear, decisive statement about where the "new" management stands... Strike One.

Not actually getting rid of Harry and then making a clear public statement reassuring everyone Harry Ingram is no longer involved... Strike Two.

Not making any good faith effort to rectify the wrongs previously committed.. and then having the GALL to offer struts for sale to the same people who had paid the company for struts already and gotten nothing... then giving them a Harry-like excuse about not even dealing with the Harry factor... Steee-rike Three.

I hear the sounds of a steel guitar playing that old favorite, "Aloha".

You blew it, Harvey. You just took the value of this clunker down another notch if that were possible. We'll pass the hat and give you $50,000 for everything. We'll throw in another five grand if Harry's hide is part of the deal.

VERY WELL SAID BILL, PERFECTION

AND YES WE NEED TO BUY THAT CERTIFICATE, SO AS TO NOT LET IT GET IN THE HANDS OF CROOKS AGAIN, THAT WILL PROTECT THE A/C AND THE VALUES, IT THEN CAN BE MANAGED AND OPERATED APPROPRIATELY.

I CERTAINLY WOULD BE READY TO DONATE OR "BUY" A PIECE OF IT. WE NEED A LEADER TO HELP ORGANIZE THIS. QUESTION IS WHO?

[VictorBravo]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Take A Look At The Web Site, Nothing Has Changed, Not Even The Logo, Its Still In The Same Location, Same Players, Just Different Rules

And Yes Harry Is Still There

Js

Not making a clear, decisive statement about where the "new" management stands... Strike One.

Not actually getting rid of Harry and then making a clear public statement reassuring everyone Harry Ingram is no longer involved... Strike Two.

Not making any good faith effort to rectify the wrongs previously committed.. and then having the GALL to offer struts for sale to the same people who had paid the company for struts already and gotten nothing... then giving them a Harry-like excuse about not even dealing with the Harry factor... Steee-rike Three.

I hear the sounds of a steel guitar playing that old favorite, "Aloha".

You blew it, Harvey. You just took the value of this clunker down another notch if that were possible. We'll pass the hat and give you $50,000 for everything. We'll throw in another five grand if Harry's hide is part of the deal.

[lfries]

Re: Anyone received their new factory struts yet?

Now that I hear Harry is around I wouldn't give the "Factory" any of my business. Thanks Airframes for getting the Strut Price down to a somewhat reasonable figure and making all of the supplers but the factory, actually I guess they really aren't a supplier, sell theirs for a more reasonable price.