Aerobatics

[DannyDot]

Re: Aerobatics

I do the same in my J-5 .........2.5 g tops..........The REAL problem
is when you do it too low !..........Or screw up and fall out and pull
some hard G's ......And your right if it won't take 2.5 or even more
park and repair it !

I agree with this. Not a plane to learn such maneuvers in. If you do them well, all is well. But if you make a mistake, having a high speed, high G airframe is needed. We had a pilot in Air Force pilot training loose control on a barrel roll and she crashed. In her case the T-37 stayed together and she hit the ground going straight down close to super sonic. It does show that bad things can happen when you start going upside down.

Danny Deger

[Forrest Barber]

Re: Aerobatics

come to the fly-in and see it all happen. I use 120mph for round loop, yes she will loop out of cruise too!! kind of a "barnstormer" loop.
Just curious, I can do loops, rolls , hammerheads, and spins , is there more!! remember all aerobatics are combinations of the listed ones.

[N95334]

Re: Aerobatics

I echo the others here, DON'T LEARN AEROBATICS IN THE TAYLORCRAFT!!!
There is little room for error if you don't know what you are doing. Now with that understood entry speed for loop, humm well I have used 110 ias mph many times with good results. There is something about 105 ias mph in the manual,... V something or other... has to do with max speed in level flight or climb. And 79 ias mph poss max maneuvering speed... seems like that has something to do with max speed you can fully deflect controls without being able to pull enough G's to do any damage. At what age?? when new,
I don't know these sophisticated things, but if you are thinking about doing aerobatics in the Taylorcraft you better find a understanding of them and how to relate to them in your world.
Yes I have done loops, spins, hammerheads and positive G rolls but anything that has the least amount of negative G's is no go for me. This is due to I don't like the gas coming out of the fuel cap right onto the windshield. Kinda unnerves me to see raw gas all over the windshield.
Now I bet Bob Hover could make a Taylorcraft do all sort of aerobatics and never stress it more than some ham fisted pilots you have seen driving around. This 60 + year old aircraft is a lady and has to be made love to with a soft, slow touch....not rock and rolled.

[tim]

Re: Aerobatics

that will be nice i think ill have to do one next ???

[Acroeric]

Re: Aerobatics

Most all the old airplanes certificated to the C.A.R. standards were approved for certain aerobatic maneuvers.

As for loop entry speed- I use 120 or so indicated but I know my asi is a little high. I do not do round loops- in the Tcraft I do more of an egg to minimize G in the pull. Any roll is a slow roll- the ailerons are so heavy and slow it takes forever but a barrel roll is much easier for me- the added rudder helps it get around.

You guys wanting to do acro should really consider a clipwing- in my opinion it is unbelivable for the power. I have personally seen outside square loops in an O-200 powered clipwing. I have also seen a complete roll on the vertical upline before hammering out. In watching some of Duane Coles old videos he used to get 3 snaps out of his with the original small engine. Once- I had the chance to talk to him in detail about his experience with it and he was quick to point out that the best plane he had ever flown was his little C90 powered Clipwing. He said once he added the 0-320 it really slowed down alot of the maneuvers- especially the snaps.

I understand that Swick was recently bought out and the guy that did will be offering clipwing kits in the really near future.

[Dano"T"]

Re: Aerobatics

I took aerobatic training in a Luscombe 17 years ago....the T-Craft was an easy transistion from that......I don't do any in my BC12D anymore....just my self preservation instinct kicking in....I used to only do loops, spins, wingovers...no rolls....I have an old home movie of my dad doing a snaproll in a J3 Cub back in 1960 .....looks kinda silly wallowing around....he says now, he must have been crazy, I also had the good fortune to fly aerobatics in a Meyers OTW with a 160 Kinner...a friend of my dad's had one...did a great barrel roll. That 5 cylinder radial sounded like an out of balance washing machine. It liked to ground loop too. I never did...but I had one high pucker landing.

[crispy critter]

Re: Aerobatics

110 works good but 120 gives you a little extra margin for error.

[FunkyMonkey]

Re: Aerobatics

I would like to get some training before trying anything in a T. How much training would be prudent before doing acro in a taylorcraft? obviously it depends but in general where is a good starting point. I would like to get acro training but having done that what do you look for on the taylorcraft to check for deteriation?

My taylorcraft was restored a number of years ago and put in storage for several years by the previous owner and im thinking it would probably be best to refrain from aerobatics on the basis that i just dont know whats there. But on the same note Crispy said that if the bird looked like it couldnt take 2.5g's then she should be flying so what are the signs that you would look for? Just obvious stuff like cracks in the spar or are there other things that should be checked? I trust my a&p looked over everything but its not his life thats depending on it either.

Also is aerobatics legal in a taylorcraft? What are the max g's the taylorcraft is certified to? i would guess around 4. i feel like i should know this but i cant seem to find it anywhere. Acro isnt legal in your average cessna spam can right? whats different?

Sorry for all the questions guys. Im a new pilot and a new T-craft owner. I would just like to know the most i can about my airplane. Thanks for all your replies even the smart ass ones

[Jim Hartley]

Re: Aerobatics

Good post Eric...with very good advice.

Jim

I routinely do light acro in my BC12-D-85. (loops, rolls, spins, hammers, 1/2 cubans etc) and even hope to use it for some airshow work soon ;-) It has original spars but it was totally restored in 1999 and they looked wonderful.

The thing to remember here is that the Tcraft is not the right airplane to learn acro in. It is a great airplane to do the graceful stuff in once you have experience. A loop can be performed at 2.5 - 3 G but if you screw up that can easilly become 4 or more. A roll can also be safely done at 1 g but lots of planes smack the ground when a newbie acro pilot chickens out at the 1/2 roll point and pulls out overspeeding and G'ing the airplane. The roll rate is really slow- it takes total commitment to the roll which is very difficult- especially when you do not pitch up enough on entry.

Like an idiot I taught myself acro (in a clipwing T)- I flew RC airplanes for many years and that probably saved my life- but I still screwed up on occasion. Once I botched a hammerhead and did a tail slide-the stick came out of my hand- how the control surfaces stayed on the airplane is still a mystery but I learned and was albe to live through it.

As always- the recommendation here is to get some training 1st.

[fearofpavement]

Re: Aerobatics

Just curious as to what the chances of getting out of a broken T-craft with a parachute are...

[paulnuss]

Re: Aerobatics

Age of wing spars? The wood started out maybe 100 to 200 years old when the spars were made. Condition is everything! How do you tell the condition? Pretty hard to do unless you have recently rebuilt the wings, and went over the spars with a magnifying glass, knowing what to look for as far as compression fractures, etc.

As said already, many simple aerobatic maneuvers can stress the airplane very little, done correctly. Done incorrectly, or when things go bad, G levels, airspeeds, and torsion loads can rise to very high levels very quickly.

And, doing ordinary slow rolls in a Taylorcraft is far from easy, requiring, in my opinion, pretty good technique, much more so than common aerobatic airplanes like Citabrias, Decathlons, or (especially) my Pitts. Looping maneuvers are normally quite easy. Minimum loop entry speed can vary significantly with pilot skills and finesse. Spins stress the airplane very little, except when recoveries are done sloppily and overspeeds and hard pulls can result from poor techniques. The Taylorcraft's spin modes are mostly docile and predictable and recovery is normally nearly instantaneous.

I am not at all sure that most could tell the difference accurately in G-loadings without a G-meter. Maybe I am desensitized a bit from years of acro practice, but I personally can't tell with any great accuracy without a G-meter.

Rough and hard landings generate different forces than most positive-G acro maneuvers one might be able to do in a Taylorcraft. Indeed I can see how unseen damage could be lurking from "controlled crash" style hard landings. Not to mention dragging or bumping a wing and the possible resultant compression fractures... Do you know your airplane's complete history?

All this said, I routinely do some aerobatic maneuvers in my '46 BC12-D1. I rebuilt it completely myself. I have done a fair amount of spin training in her. Loops, Cuban 8's, barrel rolls, slow rolls. Hammerheads? Well, without much of an up-line! But, I do these gently as possible, I wear a parachute, keep plenty of altitude in my pocket just-in-case. I have well over 1000 aerobatic flights logged in Pitts Special, Pitts S2A, Decathlon and Extra 300L airplanes mostly, and a smattering of others. I find my stock 65 hp Taylorcraft, in excellent condition, to be delightful and challenging because of its low power, light wing load, powerful elevator and rudder, and very slow ailerons.

[flyguy]

Re: Aerobatics

Chet, or anyone,
What is the normal entry speed for a BC12 for a loop. I have heard that they will loop from cruise. I have a -85 with a more or less standard prop.
Darryl

[Chet Peek]

Re: Aerobatics

Charles Rooks restored a DC-65 (like mine) and had a video made a while back showing all the maneuvers including 5 turn spins. Haven't heard from him for a while, but his E-Mail used to be [email protected].

Spins, loops and even snap (flick) rolls are no big deal, will impress the passenger and not pull many G's. But then, at age 86, perhaps I've lost some of my daring.

Chet Peek

[Ed O'Brien]

Re: Aerobatics

I wonder how many Gs I pull doing a thumpy landing? These planes are built better than me, although your mileage may vary.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Pearson]

Re: Aerobatics

How do you know how many g's your pulling? do you guys have g meters installed?

I don't know if this is considered "smart ass advise", but I know it is a fact. At a 60 degree bank angle you are pulling two Gs. That should give you at least a starting point for judging how many Gs you are pulling at other times.